This subject came up in Tommy's thread titled "things do come full circle..." and I thought it should have it's own thread. This is the quote from Greenlight - David, No knock on you, because it is the norm, but You start guys at $10.00 an hour and top them @ $13.50 as foreman. I think that is something most of us don't want to examine any further than we have to. You simply aren't going to get a lot of loyalty out of people who can barely afford to survive. Their options are work a regular work week of 40 hours and not be able to pay your bills or work 60-80 hours per week, pay your bills and manage to avoid spending because your job dominates every aspect of your life. As guilty as the employee who stabs the owner in the back is, the owner has certainly never complained about the unbelievably low rate for skilled labor in the field. Let's face it, for years the hispanic market has kept labor rates excruciatingly low nationally and we have reaped the benefits (ironic considering most are illegal). Now I know most will counter with "hey, I never hired anyone illegal". You didn't have to, the illegal labor was so widespread (and still is) that it kept labor rates extremely low across the board. When I worked in manufacturing, I thought an easy answer to the "illegal migrant worker problem" was to only hire legal. When I got back into contracting, I found out how hard that was. Like it or not, wether it is your company, or the competition, the company that only hires legal has a harder time competing. I know of two guys in the South Bay that will only hire a legal and fully documented employee. Most others just dismiss the idea as impossible. I work alone most of the time, but when I have had guys, I know I get way more work out of the guy who came from somehwere else, vs. the guy who was born and raised here. I don't remember it being this bad in the early nineties, my first contracting go round. I agree with Greenlight. The proliferation of illegal migrant workers has kept labor rates down, and in some cases driven selling prices down. I don't have an answer to the problem, but may or may not ever hire someone full time, so it may not be my issue to solve.