My Seeding Plan Massachusetts Opinions Needed

Discussion in 'Turf Renovation' started by DieselMDX, Apr 30, 2013.

  1. Hissing Cobra

    Hissing Cobra LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 705

    Very easy to do when you've got a clay environment and nothing drains. In fact, the clay holds the moisture for a lot longer than the sandy environment around here. For what it's worth, I'm 20 minutes north of the OP, so I'm pretty confident that I know the type of soil I have here by Cape Cod.

    Well, he's either got sprays or rotors and I've talked with him (not in this thread) about watering differences between the two and how sprays will need shorter watering times due to their ability to flood an area faster.

    Around here in our pure sandy environment, you need a lot of moisture. I've been in this industy for the past 12 years in this area and I'm pretty confident that our soil's water holding capacity is pretty much non-existant.

    Just because I didn't post a consideration for his soil type or growth pattern doesn't mean I don't know what I'm talking about. I think you underestimate where I live because I don't have my location listed as a state. Well, I live 20 minutes away from his town so I don't have to post about what's going on in his area as I already know this information.

    Yes, anyone can throw Nitrogen at a lawn and make it look good.

    After dealing with turf for 12 straight years, I'm pretty confident in what I see, hear, and deal with on a daily basis to make a pretty good judgement call on things. I ask a lot of questions before giving out information. I'm licensed to apply these products in Massachusetts, I hold a commercial certification in tree/shrub with the state of Massachusetts, and I also hold a dealer's license in the state of Massachusetts. I used to have also have a license to apply in Rhode Island but I gave that up as I no longer work in that state.

    Tupersan/Siduron is not the only way to deal with weeds and crabgrass pressure as Quincloric is another product but that's a conversation for another day. I will not get into a conversation on natural based products because I have never seen them work as effectively as people claim and neither have the Professors who teach their classes at U-Mass Amherst - of which I've sat through too many to count.

    Not really guessing when he's in my area and I know the conditions.

    That's your opinion

    Whatever you say. You're over 3,000 miles away in another state and recommending things that work for your area - none of which are effective for our area. It sounds like you're the one who's guessing on most of this stuff.

    Yes, I am a dealer for these products but that doesn't diminish my knowledge of what's going on. I can also recommend many products from other companies that we don't carry so that doesn't diminish anything either. Hell, I can show him how to improve his lawn with pretty much any company's products. It's all in the "Why's, How's, Timing of treatments, and active ingredients." Being a vendor for products doesn't make me illiterate or diminish my capacity to help steer people in the right direction.
  2. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    And I can drive less than 5 minutes and have a completely different soil type. In fact, I have sites where I have completely different soil types on site. Further, can you point out where he said he was on the Cape?

    And yet you are recommending 15 minutes 3 times a day with temps in the 60's. Claiming inside information doesn't help you, and FYI, unless you put your eyes on site and done an audit of it, you are simply guessing. The fact remains, you only need to apply enough water to keep the seed moist, not enough water to bring the soil to saturation at a 5 foot depth.

    I don't really care how long you have been in the industry. Recommending irrigation times that are in excess of ET, seeding or not, is simply irresponsible. Oh, and FYI, the reference value for plant available water holding capacity (AWC) for "pure sand" is 0.25 in/foot on the low end for a coarse sand, 1.0 in/ft on the high end for a fine sand.

    If he is in a sandy soil on the cape, it is more likely he is sitting on a loamy sand or a sandy loam, but we will assume an unmodified Evesboro sand, which has a low end AWC of 0.48 in/foot and a high of 1.08 in/foot.

    Again, taking the example of a system with a PR 1.5 in/hour and site ET of 0.12 in/day, how much have you over watered for all of these?

    HC .... anything short of auditing the site is guess work. You cannot even begin to make an informed recommendation on fertilizer without more information.

    Again, I don't really care how long you have doing this or what certs you have. It means nothing if the information you are providing is inaccurate or just plain wrong. The thing is, you didn't ask for any information here, and yet you posted a very specific management plan on a public forum that anyone in the world can read, and people that prefer to be spoon fed will likely follow, regardless of what area they are from.

    Sorry man, that doesn't cut it. I have sites that have widely variable weed pressure on the same site. Just because you are "in the area" doesn't mean squat. Didn't at least one of your cert classes inform you of this?

    Not my "opinion", it is fact. Feel free to verify that with any university of your choice.

    I don't guess .... and FYI, I grew up in MA & NH. But heh, we don't have weeds, or grow turf, or have irrigation out on this coast.

    And there it is. Guess it doesn't hurt to slip in some unpaid product promotion.

    But that also doesn't stop you from recommending people use a product without knowing the extent of weed pressure on a site, if there even is any. You know that "why the hell not" application so I can sell more product kind of recommendation.
  3. Hissing Cobra

    Hissing Cobra LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 705

    Your turf picture looked good. Why do you have to reseed every year?
  4. Hissing Cobra

    Hissing Cobra LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 705

    I never said he was on the cape. I said he was nearby the cape. He's also right near the ocean, so guess what he's got for soil?

    I've done over 150 soil tests from customers over the past 5 years and guess what? None of them have come in with a clay type soil. They're all coming back as either sandy or a sandy loam. We haven't had any measurable rain in almost a month, if not more. Everything around here is bone dry. Hell, my own lawn is pure sandy soil and it's bone dry - and I've run my irrigation system 3 times in the past week. Five feet? Where did you get that number from?

    Irresponsible? Coming from the guy who's recommending a watering schedule of once per day for a sandy environment.

    I posted something that will work and has worked over and over for the past 7 years. I have tons of happy customers that have followed this plan or similar plans (I DO change them as there are different circumstances). Those who are from other areas that want to copy this are using their own risk. If they copy it and it works for their area that's great. If it doesn't work for their area the blame is not on me. I am not responsible for their choice.

    Obviously weed pressure varies, especially in the shady areas vs. the sunny areas. I think we all know that. I recommend for people to seed shady areas every spring and to keep Crabgrass pre-emergent controls out of those areas as they act as root pruners. A simple starter fertilizer is all that is needed for areas like that. If you're in a sunny area where crabgrass is more than likely to grow, I'll recommend Tupersan every day of the week as I know that it works.

    You can say what you want. I don't come here to help people buy the products that my company sells. I come here to help them grow and maintain a lawn, and to prevent them from wasting money on mistakes they could have avoided. I don't post any answers, nor give any advice to people in California on how to grow/maintain a lawn because I know it's a different type of environment than what we have in New England, the growing seasons are different, the seeds to plant are different, and other variables that I don't know about. However, you can give your wisdom to someone on a different coast, 3,000 miles away and you're the one calling me irresponsible? Keep on recommending that TTF type seed to people in our area. The only ones you see that will buy it are people who have large, wide open fields that they cannont water on a regular basis. What may work for your area is obviously different than what is going on out here.
  5. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    Give me a city.

    Answer the questions HC.

    Replied to OP ......

    Good for you .... still doesn't mean you aren't over irrigating or over fertilizing .... but heh whatever dude.

    How about this? Recommend pre-emergents when there is a history of weeds and/or weed seed input into the area. Is that so difficult or is it appropriate to just assume there will be weeds even in situations where there won't?

    HC, why don't you go ahead and outline the differences in growing turf between the two locations, since you feel they differ dramatically. Please be specific. Anything short of that is smoke and mirrors.

    Before you start, realize this. Nearly every USDA zone is represented in CA and soils vary across the entire spectrum.
  6. DieselMDX

    DieselMDX LawnSite Member
    from MA
    Messages: 72

    holy crap and I didnt even think this would even get any responses.

    thanx again Pete!
  7. Hissing Cobra

    Hissing Cobra LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 705

    No problem!
  8. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

  9. maynardGkeynes

    maynardGkeynes LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 411

    Took a quick look at the 2nd one. Do they seem like maybe they want to blame the Lawn Care Industry instead of the big Ag guys? Now, I'm 100% for responsible use of chemicals etc by the LCOs, but overall, we are a small part of a big problem. I don't like the part about lower customer's expectations. That ain't the way to build a business!!!
  10. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    There is an estimated 163,812 km2 (± 35,850 km2) (40,478,827 acres) of turfgrass in the United states ( ref ) which makes it the single largest irrigated "crop" in the country, by a healthy margin. I would hardly call that insignificant ..... would you? Further ... we need food, we don't "need" turf.

    As a contrast, in 2012 the estimated planted acreage of ALL principle crops (corn, sorghum, oats, barley, rye, winter wheat, Durum wheat, other spring wheat, rice, soybeans, peanuts, sunflower, cotton, dry edible beans, potatoes, canola, proso millet, and sugarbeets) for the united states is 326,318,000 acres. ( ref )

    IMO, there is no good or justifiable reason to manage residential/commercial turf at the same level as sports turf.

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