[Squirter]

first off, i'm a homeowner (central indiana) who really enjoys working to get the best looking lawn in the neighborhood. i hope this doesn't offend you pros trying to make a living. perhaps some free advice?

i have a really nice looking / thick lawn of kbg (80%) and perennial rye. the lawn was established about 3 yrs. ago an is about 8k sq. ft. of turf. i also have an in-ground irrigation system (watering 2-3 times/wk. @ 5:30 a.m.) and a walker mower with the grass handling system which collects my clippings. i have been using lesco (jdl) granular fert since the establishment of my lawn. i also have a backpack sprayer to spot-treat broadleaf weeds (very few).

for the last 3 yrs, my lawn has been beautiful in the spring and fall....but summer, not so much. mind you, it's still the best lawn in the area, but not up to my high-standard. seems i struggle with things like red-thread, brown patch.

as for my fert schedule, i usually apply every 7-8 wks starting yesterday with my first ap of pre-emergent/fert (i think it was 25-2-5 w/10% dimension). i'll probably apply again around memorial day using whatever my jdl guy suggests (seems this has been 23-0-11 ???) and use the same stuff for my 3rd and 4th ap (july 4th & labor day). in early november, i'll winterize with 35-3-5 (i think).

my thoughts are that i'm throwing away money and nutrients by collecting my clippings (walker mower). i'm not worried about the money but the discarded nutrients could be a problem given my past fert habits/schedule.

so, i'm looking to improve the lawn this year so that it looks great all season. i have a feeling i could get the desired result if i were to fertilize more often using less fertilizer material per application. i'm open to your suggestions if you would be so kind to weigh-in. thanks in advance!!! please offer a schedule i can follow along with any change in the fertilizer i'm using. thanks again for helping me take my lawn to the next level.

 

[RigglePLC]

Squirter,
Red thread problem? That usually attacks perennial rye grass.Which suggests that the perennial rye has been aggressive and crowded out some of your bluegrass. And you are correct--by collecting the clippings, you are throwing away some of the nutrients that would otherwise enrich your soil and grass. If so you may want to boost your program with a high quality 50 percent slow release fert between treatments. Red thread is worse when the fertility is low. And it is worse if you water at night--or if it rains during a warm night. Brown patch is worse when fertility is high during the same conditions. Sorry. Fungicide is expensive. But maybe you could change to water deeper 2 days a week at noon--aim at reducing the average weekly humidity. Never let the grass stay wet more than two hours. And you might try to overseed with strictly top-quality red thread-resistant rye or Kentucky bluegrass.

 

[tombo82685]

Your lawn could be suffering in the summer, because you may be over fertilizing in the spring. If you put to much fert down, the plant concentrates all its carbohydrate production (energy) to produce top growth instead of building root mass for the summer months. By the time summer comes the lawn has no energy left and a small root mass and goes into dormacy earlier then expected.

Like riggle said, your wasting valuable nutrient loss by bagging your clippings. If your worreid that clippings will produce thatch, that is false. Clippings are made up of 60-70% of water and decompose rather quickly, assuming their isnt a bad thatch layer already present.

For spoon feeding during the summer time, milorganite is a good option. Its more exspensive, but has very low burn potential, organic fert. With milorganite you have to wait for the soil temps to get high because the fert is broken down by soil microbes, which are more active during higher soil temps.

You can also apply iron to your yard. Iron is the key component in photosynthesis in the chlorophyll production (green color in grass). Iron will help green up the lawn without pushing the top growth.

In terms of grass i would try and get away from the monoculture stand of kent blue. If you get a turf disease this can just wipe through your whole yard, instead of a yard that has a wide variety of turf grasses.

 

[tombo82685]

Squirter,
Red thread problem? That usually attacks perennial rye grass.Which suggests that the perennial rye has been aggressive and crowded out some of your bluegrass. And you are correct--by collecting the clippings, you are throwing away some of the nutrients that would otherwise enrich your soil and grass. If so you may want to boost your program with a high quality 50 percent slow release fert between treatments. Red thread is worse when the fertility is low. And it is worse if you water at night--or if it rains during a warm night. Brown patch is worse when fertility is high during the same conditions. Sorry. Fungicide is expensive. But maybe you could change to water deeper 2 days a week at noon--aim at reducing the average weekly humidity. Never let the grass stay wet more than two hours. And you might try to overseed with strictly top-quality red thread-resistant rye or Kentucky bluegrass.

riggle, the other reason that the ryegrass could be crowded out is that its a bunch type grass growing primarily through tillering, while kent blue is a creeping grass. Like you stated per rye gets a lot of devastating disease that could kill it off esp gray leaf spot and pythium.

 

[quiet]

And consider changing fertilizers. Ammonium Sulfate is a much better quick release N source than urea. Methylene Urea is a much better slow release N source than Sulfur Coated Urea. And Sulfate of Potash (SOP) is a much better source of K than Muriate of Potash (MOP), particularly in summer where a lower salt index fertilizer is beneficial during the hot, dry periods.

Sounds like you got a pretty good idea where to shop. But don't discount Scotts fertilizers. I don't now what they sell in each region, but in addition to their regular Turf Builder, down here they sell Scotts Southern Turf Builder, also. Its'a 22-3-16 blend with methylene urea, ammonium sulfate, and SOP. That's some good stuff.

BTW for spoon feeding in between apps, Ammonium Sulfate is excellent.

And as Riggle states, mulch those clippings, and go to a "deep soak - long dry out" watering schedule. Make those roots get down and get it. The deeper the roots, the healthier the lawn.

 

[TL1981]

Your watering schedule may have a good amount to do with your lawns sensitivity to summer conditions. As stated above water deeply and infrequently. When you supply the roots with a consistant, predictable watering then there is no need for deep root development - which is one key to drought resistance.

 

[Squirter]

wow.........thanks guys. lawnsite has been berry berry good to me. i'm sure you've all provided GREAT feedback. the problem is, am i smart enough to figure out what to do with it. seems i'm getting a bit over my head...especially when it comes to understanding some of your comments about the different types of fert. since i'm 'just a homeowner', i've tried to leave my lawn care (fert recommendations) decisions up to my jdl dealer, who has probably done a great job helping me. he can only do so much.

one of my objectives (right or wrong) has been to increase the kbg through overseeding. i've done this the past 2 years in the fall right after aeration. i'm also interested in thickening my lawn as i still have some spots that are bare or thin. i've always believed that one of the best ways to prevent weeds/crabgrass is to have a really thick lawn and i think i like the looks of kbg over perennial rye. so, i've used 100% kbg but haven't really had the best results w/ fall overseeding. while i'm not a complete failure, it seems i just don't have a 'green thumb' when it comes to getting seeds to germinate. HOWEVER....after reading one of the replies (above), perhaps i should reconsider trying for more NEW kbg. it makes sense NOT to put all my 'eggs in one basket' and wipe out an entire lawn when/if bad things happen.

another comment y'all have made is to try reducing the humidity of my lawn. wow, that makes perfect sense as i reflect on my watering habits. i've tried to water in the early morning when it is less windy. in fact, most people seem to prefer early a.m. watering. however, as i think about it, the areas of my lawn that seem to suffer the most (in summer) is where it gets the least amount of MORNING sunlight. i think i'll try to delay my a.m. waterings until around 9-10ish. also, watering deeper (less frequent) makes simple, but great sense. i think my past watering schedule (2-3 times/wk) has NOT helped me develop a good root system as i've probably been guilty of using shorter cycles.

enuf rambling...........keep those thoughts coming and i'll try to do more reading than writing.

 

[RigglePLC]

Good plan Squirter,
perfection in grass is only a little ways off. If premium quality is your goal, I would also suggest a soil test. Feed it what it needs. For fall overseeding, I would suggest--sow seed about Aug 31 or when daytime highs come down to less than 85. The soil temp is warm so seed germinates quick--but you may have to go back to daily light irrigation to get the new seed established. KBG is slow comapared to ryegrass--be patient. Go with top quality disease-resistant genetically dark green cultivars like "Northstar", "Alpine", and "Midnight II"...or ...check out Scotts new MLB Stadium grass seed. Get the grass used at Wrigley Field. (Read the fine print skeptically--it may not be exactly the same.) Most baseball fields have their turf custom grown under contract off-site at certain sod farms.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100120&content_id=7943258&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb
And a link to red thread disease. http://www.purdue.edu/envirosoft/lawn/src/redthread.htm

 

[RodneyK]

There are a lot of guys smarter than me on here about this stuff. I do have some experience especially on what you are trying to do. I have the same goals as you on my personal lawn. I haven't found a client yet to spend the money...

First thing I would do is pull a soil test. Take that to JDL and they will hook you up. RigglePLC is right on with that suggestion and his others... Without that how do you know what your turf really needs? I would consider Harrell's also. They are in Indy and I think offer better consultation.

Research done on overseeding blue into rye by the USGA has shown that the KBG may germinate but not survive. I have experienced the same results even after multiple passes with a aerator and dethatcher. I beat the crap out of it. The only spots that came up good were the K31 patches I used Round-Up on. I personally think you may be wasting your time trying to overseed. But, not sure how much of your stand is rye at this point either.

I do not like rye so I do not have any in my stand. I used a variety of 8 bluegrasses. It took a long time to get it going.

This is what I would do:

1) Soil test and take to JDL for recommendations for fert and or other products depending on test results. You may find a couple light feedings of a 0-0-52 and a 11-52-0 may carry you through the summer if your soil needs it. Mine does. Sounds like you are getting enough N down in the fall.
2) I would get on a fungicide program. Yes it is expensive but if it means that much to you then several apps are within reason. I would go preventitive schedule as curative gets even more expensive and at that point damage may be done. 8,000 is not that much turf. You will need to start soon.
Ok to stop here, without disease you could have your best turf year ever.
Or, you can go even further:
3) If you are like me I do not think you will be totally happy until you have a variety of all KBGs in your stand. I think there is a product to spray that would kill the rye but leave the blue. I think I remember my JDL guy telling me about it. If that is the case I would do that this fall and then overseed with a blend of KBGs that will match up with whatever varieties where in your original planting. It takes up to 21 days to germinate KBG. Keeping the seed bed moist for that long is key. I do a few light irrigations a day. This is a risky move and you may end up with a pile of crap...and, quite possibly you could be doing a bunch of work for a 5% improvement in the end...

If that product to kill the rye does exist and it kills quite a bit of your stand then be prepared for a 6-9 month period at least to get back on top with just a KBG blend.

Btw, yes you are losing .5lb N a year by bagging but the quality of bagging outweighs that IMHO. I would just compensate.

 

[Squirter]

thanks rodney.

i'm going to jdl today to inquire about a post emerg broadleaf granular....which is unrelated to my initial post. it's just one of those never-ending springtime lawn issues. seems the "early warm up" (temps in the high 70's and low 80's) here in indy has the broadleaf stuff popping up. i have a backpack sprayer to do redzone/speedzone for my lawn (spot treat) but probably need a granular to get take care of (blanket) the neighbor's weed infested lawn.

while at jdl, i'm going to ask my guy to recommend a fungicide and the proper time to apply. hopefully he'll have something. i think i see some value in what you have suggested....which was that addressing the fungus/disease could produce my best lawn in many years. that approach, coupled with a slightly different approach to watering (let it dry out more and reduce humidity of turf), could be all i need. additionally, i'm going to do a spoon feeding approach (more aps, less fert/ap) this year since i'm collecting my clippings.

i doubt i've got the guts to try removing the perennial rye and incorporating all kbg. i'm really not complaining THAT much about my existing turf to justify all the possible headaches of "starting over". as i've said, my lawn is really quite good as it is. what i probably will do is the soil sample sometime in august??? maybe the results will reveal how i can make a fall aeration w/over-seeding of 100% kbg more successful than past attempts. i like the thoughts of riggle on getting to know more about the good kbg (northstar, alpine, etc.)