NOFA graduate questions

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by adforester, Aug 20, 2011.

  1. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    Explain a "post pre-emerge"? Either it acts as a pre-emergent or not. All five that I listed are used for pre-emergent control.
  2. replenish&subdue

    replenish&subdue LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 272

    A pre-emerge prevents weeds from germinating. I believe all the ones you listed are post emergents that kill weeds already up. For example,Dicamba is a postemergent. The two most used pre-emerges are probably Prodiamine and Pendulum.
  3. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    No, all of them are listed as having pre-emergence control. Some of them are also listed as having post-emergent control, that however does not negate pre-emergent properties. Can you please get your facts straight.

    For example Dicamba, which you think is only a post-emergent.

    Dicamba is a benzoic acid herbicide. It can be applied to the leaves or to the soil. Dicamba controls annual and perennial broadleaf weeds in grain crops and grasslands, and it is used to control brush and bracken in pastures. It will kill broadleaf weeds before and after they sprout. Legumes will be killed by dicamba (3, 5). In combination with a phenoxyalkanoic acid or other herbicide, dicamba is used in pastures, range land, and non-crop areas (fence-rows, roadways and wastage) to control weeds (1).

    Here is Siduron

    APPLICATION METHOD(S): Applied as a preemergence treatment to bare soil as a final operation following spring seeding, or to new fall seedings or established turf in the spring just before expected emergence of annual weed grasses

    Do I need to continue? FYI, I checked to make sure they could be used for pre-emergent control before I posted them.
  4. replenish&subdue

    replenish&subdue LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 272

    Yes but that is yes and no. A number of postemerge products have some pre-emerge activity but they are not considered pre-emerges. The vast majority of all (the few who don't are confused) use Prodiamine,Pendulum and Drive(product name). Besides I am talking mainly about preventing grassy weeds like crabgrass and not broadleaves.
    Therefore show me the studies where the most common pre-emerges that control grassy weeds harm people,pets or the environment.If it is out there you would be the one who can find it. I know you are well respected on this forum and by me but I am saying the organic/natural world might be a little more open to at least pre-emerges that control crabgrass because that is one area the org. have no solution. I have seen organic companies come and go in the south because they can not beat the crabgrass. Well,what's the harm in including the prodiamine if it causes no harm.
    After all even NOFA allows pyrethrum which comes from the chrysanthemum and thus is natural but so is snake venom. Pyrethrum is harmful to people and should not be on any organic/natural program but yet it is justified because I guess they needed Something.
  5. phasthound

    phasthound LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,161

  6. replenish&subdue

    replenish&subdue LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 272

    Thanks for input. I am not for or against but hope for a little openness and acceptance for some chemical products until discoveries are made to not have to use them. Meanwhile organic/natural has hurtles it has not been able to jump and it is either include some pre-emerges or eventually have grassy weeds take over especially if one lives in warmer climates.
    The links confirmed that Prodiamine is quite safe for a man made product.Here is one summary from the link, "With respect to the proposed use patterns, exposure to birds (and small mammals) to prodiamine residues would primarily be via the eating of treated turf and of seed or insects that were in the turf when it was sprayed with the formulated material. Based on the estimated dietary intakes of prodiamine by birds (and small mammals) following the proposed application of Barricade Turf Herbicide at the maximum use rate of 1.92 kg prodiamine/ha and comparison of such values with the relevant subchronic dietary LC50 or NOECs, risk to birds (and small mammals) through eating of prodiamine contaminated feed has been shown to be acceptable.

    And yes,NOFA standards forbid chemicals but I am saying that pyrethruims,although natural are harmful to people,pets,and plants yet because they are natural find acceptance. They are used down where I am in misting systems which are sprayed 3 times a day. I hear complaints of rashes and respiratory reactions,plant damage due to burning and they will do harm to beneficial insects like bees and butterflies that come in contact with the spray.

    But I think it will come down to a number of people only want to use organic/natural means and deal with it short comings and enlighten people to their superiority which I respect. I think that is what this forum is about and it has a number of pioneers who have made a way when their was no way or rather rediscovered.
  7. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    First, you never specified anything in your question ... you just stated pre-emergent. As with Chip, you have now slipped into talking about something else.

    Second, Drive is listed as a post-emergence herbicide. Who is confused here?

    DriveĀ® XLR8 herbicide may be applied postemer-
    gence to residential and nonresidential turfgrasses

    And from Cornell, which notes the same. Go ahead a read the Cornell doc, you might find some interesting information regarding impacts.

    Third, just because you and your buddies don't consider them a pre-emergent doesn't mean they aren't. If the active ingredient (ingredients) can exert pre-emergent control, and they are listed as doing as much, then it is a pre-emergent.

    As I have said before, you can make the argument that water is harmful to the environment, humans, etc.... If you won't do the research necessary to see where and how the use of these synthetic products can impact the environment, etc.... then I am done here.
  8. replenish&subdue

    replenish&subdue LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 272

    No way ,don't go away just yet. Right Drive is a post but I don't use it much except to control crabgrass in fescue when it is already up ,so yes it is a postemerge. meant to say Dimension so my mistake but still correct. Where you can learn is that ALL the chemical heads (Tru-green,Scotts,little chem.heads...)wouldn't touch the products you listed to prevent crabgrass but use Prodiamine or Pendulum. And as Barry provided Prodiamine is safe at home plate. Therefore just learn,consider and go on a more informed person sticking to your organics(we all cheer you on) but know that no organic head can say the above mentioned pre-emerges are as terribly bad as we would label them to be.As much as I want to use all organic/natural, to keep my business and to feed my three children I use the evil pre-emerge that harms no one and hope one day a better way be found just because I like to see nature work out the problems without our interference. Really I hate chemicals and ever since being enlightened to feed the soil and not the plant,I am convinced we messed things up and am all for going back to the Beginning. As I previously said,in my yard I will be going on to my fourth year without chemicals or synthetics (fertilizers or weed control on my bermuda,zoysia and fescue yard. I control crabgrass with corn glutton and my wife's 92 yr.old grandmother. Look again into the facts of what is considered a true,effective pre-emerge used by those who are in the business of preventing crabgrass and what post emerge just has some minute pre emerge control. And again what significant harm has Prodiamine to the environment,people and pets.
  9. HayBay

    HayBay LawnSite Senior Member
    from Ontario
    Messages: 846


    Phasthound sells cavalcade with his weed and feed mixes.
    Chip is the head of Marblestone Ma Parks and Rec dept.
    You want to know how Marblehead MA maintains piper stadium,
    with almost 2 million dollars of synthetic turf.

    Take away bridge or transitional and you are left with weeds.
    EPA registered products that damage the environment when label directions are followed, highly doubtful.
    People using EPA registered products wrong and polluting? this is possible.
    People using Gasoline to fill their gas tank and Polluting, this is also possible
    People using FIESTA herbicide OFF LABEL (because FIESTA does not work at recommended label rates) This is happening right now. Is Fiesta safe when used off label, of couse not.
    Are Fatty Acids lethal to frogs, yes they are. NOFA approved frog killer.
    Look at the ingredients in Avenger Weed Killer, causes cancer in rats but NOFA approved.
    Have you ever applied Acetic Acid (vinegar) and accidently sprayed a grasshopper or frog runs through the application before suggested reentry intervals? Try it, they start to burn alive.
    This doesnt happen with ROUNDUP (glyphosate)

    No products are safe, not even table salt.

    Should we just hide under the couch now?
    Last edited: Nov 19, 2011
  10. phasthound

    phasthound LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,161

    You do like to spin the facts, don't you? You forgot "Tobacco is non-addictive and makes you feel better".

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