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Organic Fertlizer ?

Discussion in 'Pesticide & Herbicide Application' started by Mowman, Sep 23, 2001.

  1. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476

    Good Morning Hustler,

    I had to look at your profile & now I understand. I'm not trying to belittle you here, but I've been in this business longer than you've been alive. It is with this thought in mind that I will offer you some simple facts. Several direct e-mails that I have received sinced following & posting here have indicated surprise that I share knowlege freely. I feel that this forum is an awesome way for us all to better ourselves and therefore our industry through the exchange of knowlege. Our industry has many objectors. I say "our" because you are a member. Regardless of your personal feelings, your statements detract from your professionalism because they are not accurate. Detracting from your own field of endeavor is a rather self defeating effort. Again, I am not trying to attack you. You're worth more to the industry (and your own earnings potential) once you have learned more. While you probably don't have time to seek a degree in agronomy or turf science while running a business, you would do well to check out a local community college. Most offer adult evening courses in a variety of subjects. If this appeals to you, try to balance any plant science studies with some small business management courses. It will help you to achieve your goals, believe me.
    Some facts:

    1.) Nitrogen Leachate: Most of the guys involved in this thread have been using synthetic forms of nitrogen for a lot more than 20 years allready (myself included). The soils they maintain are probably a lot better off now than 20 years ago. Why? Because we're managing turfgrasses, which when healthy, add organic matter as they grow (clippings and root slough). Turf is one of the worlds most effective "bio-filters". When applied to turf, even the most soluble forms of N are likely to be utilized before they can leach. If extreme irrigation occurs (rain or man-made) N can move deeper than turf roots. So what happens? Soils differ, but on average, somewhere around 11 inches down, anaerobic bacteria consumes the surplus N long before it can reach ground-water.
    2.) Volatilization of N: While it does happen, it is more an indication of poor timing (management). This is not the fate of very much N. Nitrogen is the most abundant element on the Earth. Our atmosphere is nearly 80% nitrogen. Once fixed into compounds usable by plants and animals it becomes a natural part of life. When plants and animals die, it is returned to the planet via decay/denitrification. Then the cycle starts over. It's called life.
    3.) Most nitrogen based polution (to what I think you elude) is caused by poor agriculture based soil management (lack of soil cover) and more commonly, the poor management of sewage. The nations sewage treatment facilities need serious upgrading. This is a very costly proposition. Republicans, such as myself are generally known to be fiscal conservatives with the publics money (aka taxes). So paying for new sewage treatment facilities is a tough sale by us. Yet I would support the endeavor if the government would give up control of sewage and place it in the hands of private business. Profits could eventually enable the private sector to upgrade the plants and could then reduced accidental nitrate discharge to set levels that can decrease at rates consistent with technological advance. Government scientists could work with private enterprise to set these levels at points we could live with even though we're not exactly dying over them now.
    4.) Human Beings fear what they don't understand. I haven't checked a single text book for a reference since this thread began.(I cheated twice using the web) But I sure own a lot of them. Text books are useless until you have thoroughly digested them. Then do it again, until you could rewrite the text. Do it again with a different author to get a fresher look. Then someday, a younger man like yourself, will accuse you of sounding like a book too. While you might be too young to understand, I took that as a compliment (sort of).

    Out of time for now,
    Don't go a day without learning something!

  2. Pacific Nursery

    Pacific Nursery LawnSite Member
    Messages: 114

    Before you guys get too hard on hustlers check out his profile.
  3. Pacific Nursery

    Pacific Nursery LawnSite Member
    Messages: 114

    I posted that last post before I read the entire thread.
  4. hustlers

    hustlers LawnSite Senior Member
    from MN
    Messages: 257


    1) certified Turfgrass Prof.
    2) liscensed tree shrub pest. applicator
    3) liscensed fertilizer applicator
    4) degree in Landscape design from
    U of Georgia

    Yes i do have much experience in this field and
    do use synthetic pest. and ferts.
    but I live and work at 20 lakes and despite
    all your knowledge u need to take a be4 and
    after look at my favorite lake and see the gross
    beach with algae covering the once sandy
    shoreline. Beyond scientific results , your wrong
    Its common sense leaching of N and Phosphorus
    has ruined our lakes and the river I live on and
    now contains numerous carp, sucker fish once not
    Read THIS________________________
    I want to see you prove that this was not from feritilizer
    or basically all your smart talk aint worth 2 cents even
    after 30 yrs. of studying/
    Maybe its TGCL applying a 46-0-5 100% urea
    in early september when it rains for 2 weeks and
    all the sprinklers are on or it may be evoltion (probably not)
    I apply same materials you did but am rapidly changing
    my mind for my future kids sake so they can hopefully
    have a nice beach to swim on.
    Nothing personal, but sometimes it takes more than science
    to change somebodys mind when maybe u can do it
    for the sake of your future relatives or maybe it
    to be brought in again to graze are praised turf areas.
    ANy ways I would like to come to an agreement with
    u all on how we as an industry can help to reduce
    the amount of pollution while maintaining beatiful landscapes
    for reasons of aesthetics and not just instant GREEN
    and be known to be eco-responsible and
    not eco-irresponsible
    the watchdog and pollution protector
  5. scottt

    scottt LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 269

    Originally posted by hustlers:

    I want to see you prove that this was not from feritilizer or basically all your smart talk aint worth 2 cents even
    after 30 yrs. of studying.

    Why don't you show us proof that it WAS from fertilizer. I am not disagreeing that we need to be more responsible with our use of fertilizers and pesticides, but you're not going to convince anybody you're right until you relax and back off a little. I am the same age as you and no matter how much we think we know, many people on this site have been in this business longer than we have been alive and I guarantee they know more. Just show a little more respect for them and you might get somewhere.
  6. LoneStarLawn

    LoneStarLawn LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,415

    I know this is off topic but I have to ask.

    What is your bachelor degree in? I ask this because I believe the landscape design major can be under two different degress.
  7. morturf

    morturf LawnSite Senior Member
    from midwest
    Messages: 476

    Looked at the U of Georgia website. There is no landscape design offered, on campus or off. Landscape architecture, but now landscape design. Hmmm......and the the architecture degree is a 5 year course. You went thru fast for a guy 20 or 21 years old?
  8. I think hustlers is defiantly "certifiable".

    How come you talk about GOD so much but use the handle that is slang for a male prostitute?
  9. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476

    Hello Hustler,

    Isn't this fun? I did ask if you were ready for this. I'm kind of sorry, but I've gotta know. With spelling, grammar, and technical skills such as these, did they really let you take your SATs at age 15?

    46-0-5? Can't be made with Urea. Numbers don't fit. Period. Your harming your credibility again.

    SHEEP? Sheep were thrown off Mel Gibsons estate in Greenwich, CT. because their little droppings were CAUSING a water polution problem and now you want the problem too. Most folks in the same water shed are being prohibitted from using any organics because they all contain Phosphorous. Organic fertilizers are not, in themselves "safer". Because they release slowly, they are deemed safer. But synthetics can be just as slow or sometimes slower. Depends on how their engineered. The environmental benefits are only from the addition of Humates, which may lessen the need for fungicides. You can add humus (if needed) any number of ways, as indicated in prior posts in this very thread. Too much organic matter won't help either. Balance is key. Credibility again.
    Zero percent P (no-phos) synthetic fertilizers are often the LAW in some communities where significant runoff has occurred. Organic sources of P are the worst offenders under the right conditions. To be safe, these towns are specifying no-phos synthetics because when made correctly, they are technically superior with respect to release rates and fates. Now look Hustler, don't read anything into this yet. It has absolutely nothing to do with verticle leaching. Indeed, fertilizer is NOT the only way for a surface-waterway to pick up phosphorous. Geese are a very common source of P and ducks move more weeds around than recreational boaters do. Water tests should allready have been conducted by your state or county water authority. If your sick lake hasn't been checked, get a hold of someone.
    The way you described the situation (emotionally rather than factually), I can only guess that the problem is with P. Since P is so very INSOLUBLE it can move off site when heavy rains occur. The biggest problem with P, is indeed that it is not soluble enough! You make an app of Diammonium Phosphate (DAP) today, and you'll be lucky if it's gone in your lifetime. Use Super Phosphate and it may last for 200 years. It might sound great to you, but this is a big drawback. If P was more soluble, it would bind more quickly to soils and resist lateral movement. Phosphorous doesn't leach at all. But you must know this stuff allready from having studied soils, right?

    Now if you will calmly, accurately, and articulately share some info with me, I will try to help you with the sick lake. Please don't make me regret offering.

    1.) Water test results (including % Oxygen Sat.)from the local water authority.
    2.) Size of lake in acres.
    3.) Average depth.
    4.) Recent adjacent site use history for period of time prior to problem by 1 year.(recent bulldozer activity?)
    5.) Turn Rate and means
    6.) Aquatic flora present
    7.) Use patern (swim,fish,boat,motor,etc)
    8.) Geese, Geese, & Geese. How many for how long. Seasonal transient migratories or resident year round?
    9.) Housing-seasonal or year round? Septic or Sewer? If septic, how far back? On what class soil? Average age of home?

    If you need help obtaining this data, it may allready be available from the Inland Waterway Division of the same state agency that issued you all those certificates and liscences. If this fails, post the actual name of the lake, the town(s) and state, and a phone number for the DEP and I'll hassle them myself when I have time. I have friends in my states regulatory body that won't mind helping.

    If you respond in anything less than a professional fasion, I for one, will begin to ignore you. Which I don't really want to do. You seem to actually care about the environment and your passion (once tempered by experience) will serve you well in the years ahead if you learn to funnel your energy in a positive direction. DO NOT DISAPPOINT ME. INCLUDE ALL THE DATA REQUESTED OR I CAN'T HELP YOU.

    If I didn't care about the environment, I wouldn't need to ask you this stuff. I'd just blow you off like most other people would. But I do care. Enough to act instead of talk.

  10. hustlers

    hustlers LawnSite Senior Member
    from MN
    Messages: 257

    hustler- is the name of lawn equip. manufacturer


    I am computer illiterate, I think they are worthless
    machines and even said i would never get one
    but i had to for billing

    1) I dont have all the info. on hand
    but the amount of phosphorus is more than sufficient
    in all our soil and water- I took the info. off
    a brochure by county extension that explained all
    the technical info.
    2) lots of big lakes -small lakes- 50 acre- to many
    thousands- half of our county is lakes
    3) mostly nice weekend lakehomes
    $250000- 2 mil
    4) i dont even believe in public education but
    it was free - I went to college instead of HS
    got HS degree and turf, landscape, etc
    5 I use a non-phosphorous 29-0-0 seaweed,kelp, grain by product fert
    6)I have a lesco catalog and to say a 46-0-5, is incompatible
    is crazy- they make it not me- tgcl pollutes alot
    with it probably 50% straight into lakes.
    7) Drilling a few feet down and u will find agua frio
    so it leaches rapidly
    8) it is all sand up here
    9) my grammer is bad I have to blame
    it on my public school cause i had all A's in
    school except for 1 in computer class cause i gave everybody
    ekse the answers
    10) i am very honest and only want the truth put out
    on these subjects and I know u are 1 of the best
    11) maybe u can help me come up with good IPM
    program that is environmentally friendly
    12) It is all sewer systems in this sand with
    drain tile.


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