Organics, All or Nothing?

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by aclane2000, Jan 13, 2011.

  1. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    Perhaps, but a correct assumption nonetheless.

    That seems like a pretty all inclusive statement/question ..... no?

    Then I guess you have a problem with your own position.

    Your implications are crystal clear JD, and you damn well know it.

    Salts can and do kill microbes .... among other things. This is not an incorrect statement in as much as it does not clarify how salts can impact microbial communities. On the flip side, it is not any less (in)accurate a statement than you saying salts don't kill microbes ..... go figure.

    Is it? Perhaps it is a "critical component" to your argument, but not one with the issues which surround chemical fertilizers and their impacts on soils and soil biology. But if you insist, please list all the microbes that use these synthetic/organic/mineral plant nutrients and where they typically obtain them and what percentage of each of the three sources listed is utilized.

    And yet you still insist on spreading your uninformed bullshiit.
  2. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 795

    Sorry Smallaxe I wrote a long reply but lawnsite was shifting gears and ate it. I may rewrite it later but in three words; it's a choice.
  3. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    OK let’s start with a bacteria type that organic fert nuts are crazy about. The Nittrogen fixing bacteria known as diazotrophs. These bacteria produce an enzyme known as Nitrogenase. This enzyme captures the Nitrogen found in the atmosphere and converts it into Ammonia (a "salt fertilizer"). They then use another enzyme called Glutamine synthetase to capture the N that is in the Amonia they just produced and use it to build glutamine. For those who don’t know glutamine is a Proteinogenic amino acid. Proteinogenic amino acids are basic building blocks used to make proteins. Protiens are the powerhouses of the cell if you will.

    So here you have a soil microbe that captures Nitrogen from the atmosphere, turns it into “chemical fertilizer” (ammonia) in order to use it to make proteins. In fact, one of the enzymes I mentioned itself (Glutamine Synthetase) contains another "salt fertilizer" ion known as Ammonium.

    This is just one example but there are thousands of types of soil microbes and each uses thousands of molecules to build itself and perform different functions. There is no way that I can provide an all inclusive list. But you knew that already didn’t you Kiril?

    So as an alternative, let’s turn to some course notes provided by PhD. Stephen T. Abedon. He is a professor in the Department of Microbiology at Ohio State University. I found them in seconds using a simple google search for "Bacteria essential nutrients".

    These notes cover the chapter entitled “Microbial Nutrition”. Note the underlined words.

    Like I said, this is basic college stuff. Entry level. I have to go, but can expand on the areas I highlighted if anyone wants.

    The bottom line is... YES! Microbes need nutrients! And YES! These nutrients often include the SAME EXACT IONS as found in chemical fertilizers. Some of those that this Doctor mentioned are NH4 (Ammonium ion), NO3 (Nitrate ion), SO4 (Sulfate ion), PO4 (phosphate ion)

    And you guys call me ignorant???

    To the OP. sorry we hijacked the thread. But IMO no, organics do NOT have to be all or nothing. Unless of course you want certification from one of the organic associations.
  4. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    OK Mr. google scholar .... lets start with the fact that you keep calling ammonia a "salt fertilizer". Ammonia (NH3) is not a salt .... it is a gas. Ammonium compounds/salts are what you mean .... and they are not a "salt fertilizer", they are an ionic compound. So based on the fact that you can't even reproduce what you read accurately, the rest is worthless.

    Yes, I did. The question was meant to demonstrate the absurdity of your statements.

    Provide the link if you are going to cut and paste JD.

    Hardly basic entry level college stuff, microbiology is not a GE, nor is the course specific to soil microbiology .... but by all means JD .... please do expand (without the cut and paste). Just because you can cut and paste doesn't mean you understand. Be careful JD .... you are getting close to Gerry status here.

    Stop putting words in the professors mouth JD.

    Furthermore, you have heard of mineralization .... right? Care to explain the difference between an inorganic ion derived from an organic source vs. a synthetic one?

    Yup ... and accurately so.

    Let's recap .... you have focused on a single group of bacteria .... didn't reproduce what you read accurately, and didn't provide the answers I requested, even for the bacteria you specifically addressed. You then cut and paste some lectures notes as if they provided the answers .... but they didn't. Does that pretty much cover it JD?

    Sorry JD, but as long as you continue to spew this uninformed crap every couple of months without doing the necessary research, or at the very least reading the publication list I have posted on numerous occasions, you will continue to be ignorant on this subject and I will continue to point it out.
  5. starry night

    starry night LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,320

    Furthermore, you have heard of mineralization .... right? Care to explain the difference between an inorganic ion derived from an organic source vs. a synthetic one?

    To me, the answer to this question is the most interesting part of this thread and maybe the most important. I'm not smart enough to know the answer but I plan to read up on mineralization.
  6. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    That's all you have Kiril? Attack me? What about the points I made. You didn't once talk about the fact that those bacteria produce "chemical nutrients". (<-- is that a better, more generalized term for you?)

    Nor do you address the fact that he lists the most popular chemical fertilizers as nutrients for microbes?

    And you say I divert and deflect...

    You've got nothing but to attack me? What a joke. You remind me of Professor Crawford in the movie Finding Forrester.
  7. phasthound

    phasthound LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,160

    JD & Kiril, you both have good info to share, just stick to that and leave the personal comments out of it. Thanks.
  8. starry night

    starry night LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,320

    I agree about the personal comments but there is a challenge of substantive information that has to be decided.
  9. ecoguy

    ecoguy LawnSite Member
    from Duncan
    Messages: 234

    JD. You may be right that microbes are not killed out right although they do seem to be hampered by continued chemcial fertilizer use. It seems arrogant to think microbes in the soil can't do their job properly unless we intervene. It makes more sense for us to study how they work and then support that.

    Anyways, I think the issue of chemical fertilizers is more about sustainability. If you could focus your arguements proving that, I would listen.
  10. starry night

    starry night LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,320

    I agree but I would add that we cause problems with the microbes working properly when we do intervene.....negatively.

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