[Tn Turf]

Are you in a area where the pavement is not trimmed / edged.
I'm asking that. That properties that size. I would be in a trailer park.

& The guy in this video. You speak of.
Billed a customer 60.00 on a property that was completed in 40 minutes.
How is that bad money.
Cause.
I have a stop that consists of 4 properties. That comes out at $149.00 weekly. Average time in -out 80 minutes solo.

That comes out to $112/hr. That's really good. Below is an example of a property I mow. Yes we trim and edge. Notice it is literally 6 passes with a 60=inch mower in the front. The back yard is smaller. No hills, no ditches.

 

[Tn Turf]

Well fwiw, here’s one ex-employee who was not a fan:
View attachment 532723

Yeah I get the sense Mike Andes is an office guy who doesn't do much in the field. He posted a video of a yard he accepts and it's not a property I would even consider. You have to have a system in place to give the operator a chance to make money.

 

[Mark Stark]

P4P sounds like Flat Rate pay for mechanics. If the transmission replacement is budgeted at 17 hours (manufacture book hours) then that's what your paid for. Take 22 hours to do it and you're paid for 17 hours.

 

[Tn Turf]

P4P sounds like Flat Rate pay for mechanics. If the transmission replacement is budgeted at 17 hours (manufacture book hours) then that's what your paid for. Take 22 hours to do it and you're paid for 17 hours.

Great point. Efficient mechanics with the right tools and experience can almost always beat the clock.

If we have properties not beating the clock then either raise the price or drop the client. It's our responsibility as owners to do frequent audits.

 

[Dewiese94]

We use a p4p model for snow works great guys make a ton as does the company. But less call backs.....and I mean almost none. If they have to go back they aren't getting paid to correct it.

They are still mad if they have to go back in both models.

 

[Youngandfree]

is there audio book? I don't believe in books


It’s to give people a chance to earn more money, also obviously earning your business more money too.

flaws like 2 person crews, only good for solo, also 1-2 call backs in a week would basically kill their week, even if not necessarily their fault, how do you make the judgement call. Also subject to being priced properly.

I could do same thing with landscaping crews. Give them allotted hours per project and give a bonus if we beat quoted hours. But it’s easy to cut corners and may not get a call back for weeks or months, employee could be long gone by then

His example in the video I watched was 2 guys ripping out blackberry bushes on a job. Estimator quoted 30hrs I think and they finished in 24 man hours.

 

[Youngandfree]

Yeah, it's pretty clear who's scamming who.
LOL

It's cool though. It's the American dream - make as much money as you can - any way you can.

The owner always makes more than the worker, how is that a scam?

 

[Mitty87]

Not always true. I have a friend who has lawn care company for over 10 years with 2-3 employees and he makes around 50k, paying them around 40k, but for the actual hours Im sure he does its a bad deal for him. We also have employees who make in their first year more than I made in any of my first 3 years. If a small business owner who isn't that business savvy doesn't do much field work and has a couple employees, they might make around the same as their employees.

 

[Youngandfree]

Not always true. I have a friend who has lawn care company for over 10 years with 2-3 employees and he makes around 50k, paying them around 40k, but for the actual hours Im sure he does its a bad deal for him. We also have employees who make in their first year more than I made in any of my first 3 years. If a small business owner who isn't that business savvy doesn't do much field work and has a couple employees, they might make around the same as their employees.

That doesn't mean a smart business owner making 3 or 4 times the employee is scamming anyone.

 

[Mitty87]

That doesn't mean a smart business owner making 3 or 4 times the employee is scamming anyone.

True. I make 2.5x employee but for almost double the hours and all the investment, stress and risk.

 

[TaraAnn]

The working culture is changing. People want to feel empowered. They want to feel like they are part of something like, Door Dash, for example. They want to feel like they have control and flexibility.

I hate the Uber Lawn Mowing model like MOWZ, GREENPAL, etc. So how about P4P for mowing?

I've spent hours reading up on, and watching videos and podcasts about Mike Andes's software P4P software. While it is expensive to use, it might be a revolutionary option for our working culture., which is simple. You work efficiently, they get paid good for being efficient. You earn more. Win/win for everyone, right?

Of course there will be challenges and "controversy". Like, for example, mowing grass during spring rainy season will be more time consuming and harder than say August when grass growth is slow, hence the technician will earn less.

Also, what about 1 guy per truck so you can easily manage their output. What about 2 guys, but one is a slacker? Mike Andes said that will work itself out before it even gets to management. I'm not sure I agree...

So the question is, who here has implemented P4P? What are the pros and cons in your experience? What should base pay be? Should it be minimum wage? Should it be 30% net profit of the yard?
Perhaps a breakdown like: 30% Business Operations; 30% Technician; 30% owner; 10% Growth and Advertising?

IMO, The key is giving the crew an opportunity to earn money mowing. It's my job to find the "efficient yards"; No push mows! No excessive landscaping to mow/weedeat around! Extremely tight routes all in the same neighborhood! No problem clients! No dogs Outside! Wide Gates (nothing under 55-iches). Under 1/4 acres only. Postage stamp only. No hills, No ditches, no corner lots... just in and out so a solo operator can be done in 12 minutes flat without breaking a sweat. Giving those yards to P4P technician should be my top responsibility.

The worrisome part for me is injury, damage and liability. I think the P4P guy should carry his own liability insurance. That's the trade-off for being given the opportunity to earn $30/hr.

Looking for thoughts and input.

It’s important to note that in this business model, one has to have the ability to track and analyze data before implementing! If you know your numbers, I say go for it!

I really like the idea of running the P4P in the background, like @JFGLN mentions below.

It’s not really about rushing while on the job site. It’s about all the inefficiencies throughout the day. Loading and unloading, gas station stops, and long lunch breaks.
If employees do damage or get complaints they have to go back and fix which takes off time from their P4P bonus.
They always get their base pay.
I will be running P4P in the background starting next month to work the bugs out.

If you’re running this business model side by side a more traditional business model, I would recommend staggering start times or something along those lines…not mix the regular hourly employees with the P4P employees.

What if you hire someone like me? I'm not going to rush around for a few bucks.
Then what? You lose.
(and if the base pay is so low that it gives me incentive to rush around (like a waiter/waitress), I'd just work elsewhere from the start)

You can be both quick and efficient without rushing!

P4P can work for both parties, under the right conditions. Years back, over 10 I had 2 different employees. Sometimes they would mow with me and sometimes by themselves. Either way I would pay them per yard. I kept time (and still do) on every yard so I knew how much time it should take. They liked the fact the more efficient they were the better they were rewarded. I liked the fact my truck and equipment wasn't out there any longer than it had to be. So winner winner.

Here's the way I looked at it. I'm only going to get paid a set amount to mow a yard, let's say $50. If I'm paying someone by the hour and he takes 2 hours @ $10 an hour that's $20 in wages. If he understands he can get $15 and complete the yard in 45 minutes he's happy to do that. Understand it's not unusual to be 100+ degrees where I am in the summer.

Now I'll add there was an employee before these that this didn't work out. Let's just say he was a sorry SOB.

This can work with the right person(s) if they're self motivated. Trying this with a large number of employees, eh. Maybe if you had a good formula set up?

Perhaps part of my mindset behind this was when I was young and worked for a large company I'm pretty sure I was an above average productive person. So more and more work was piled on me and eventually it got to the point I couldn't perform all the work in the given time frame and then I was accused of being incompetent. Eventually I had to learn how to play the game and looking back it really broke my spirit for awhile. When I went in business on my own I was able to rekindle my work spirit.

This! Thanks for sharing the experience. 👍🏻

The owner always makes more than the worker, how is that a scam?

Although I’ve never owned my own business and employed others, I believe this is how it should be. I also don’t believe another man should be concerned with another man’s wages as long as employer and employee agreed on the wages prior to beginning the job. 💁‍♀️

That said, my former employer never took a paycheck! Both he and his wife are very hard workers (wife works for a local university), so the owner would invest every single bit of profit back into the company. It was such a great place to work at! Having always been on the “employee,” side of business relationships, I can say employees know when they are cared for, and about, and they know when they are just another number..