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pierce points

Discussion in 'Landscape Lighting' started by Mike M, Feb 4, 2008.

  1. Mike M

    Mike M LawnSite Bronze Member
    from usa
    Messages: 1,988

    Anyone here use pierce-points at least when chaining, or seen one worth looking into?

    DO NOT COMPARE WITH ALTERNATIVES, I'm not starting an argument/debate here on best connections, search for mike's splice thread or whatever I called it.

    I plan to subject some pierce-point connectors to a heated salt bath experiment.

    Also, is the 3M pouch with hardening sealant the only thing that could hold a completed pierce-point connection?

  2. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,102

    Stop thinking so much about minutae Mike. Be more productive.

    Pierce points suck and there is no place for them in a professionally designed and installed lighting system. Period.
  3. Mike M

    Mike M LawnSite Bronze Member
    from usa
    Messages: 1,988

  4. irrig8r

    irrig8r LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,553

    Mike, In your heart you know he's right.
  5. Pro-Scapes

    Pro-Scapes LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,180

    LED's with the wide range of input may give you the oppurtunity to chain fixtures but gives you no excuse to use pierce points. Minus Kudos points for you today mike.

    If you want to go led thats your perogative but dont hack your systems in just because you can chain em. Its not fair to your clients to offer high quality components with marginal workmanship.

    You have come up with some off the wall ideas and topics but this one is the worst by far.:nono::nono:
  6. Mike M

    Mike M LawnSite Bronze Member
    from usa
    Messages: 1,988

    Chris was peeved that I wasn't sharing info, but it's only because I knew you guys would laugh at me and insult me.

    Please, read the opening statements of my post. Of course James is right, in regards to lighting systems as we now know them. James is brilliant, but I don't think he gets my needs.

    Let me ask you this Greg, what does the phone company do in your house, do they still use the hub method like they did in my old Pennsylvania basement? Do they cut-n-nut? Do they use heatshrink tubes? No. No. And no. They tap into the line with little silicone-filled pierce-points.

    I asked not to compare the pierce-points with our current favorites for a reason. Wiring objectives and configurations are about to cut loose from old restrictions.

    You guys better start doing your homework, or the new guys coming with clear minds and a fresh start will have a big advantage over you.

    I love Unique and Cast with all my heart, but then again, I love trains, too. Until I see Nate see-the-light, Mike M's new big two: DGLights & Kichler. In fact, intermattic has the perfect transformer. How crazy is that?

    Wow. Just like that, I've got two orders of LED's coming. I'm so pumped I can't sleep.

    Let me explain my rationale for those of you who don't play with calculators: LED's are not just eco friendly, they are cheaper to install. Yup. 25% of the required wattage for same candle power means 25% of the copper windings in a transformer, and 25% of the needed copper in a cable.

    Add to that, the savings in labor. You can daisychain your heart out. The control module in the fixture can take a range of volts, like 9v thru 15v, and still only give the LED exactly what it needs.

    Greg, you gonna make 20 conventional splices on one run? or find a good pierce-point and pop it into a 3M sealant pouch? Labor = $, multiple cuts = more chance of failure and voltage loss.

    Demo's. 20-30 minutes. Why? you can use 9v batteries and no wires, or, an easy-to-assemble daisy run with multiple movable pierce points.

    Replicability and simplicity. Without so much worry about multitaps and readings, you can promote your service and tech guys to installation and head back to your office for design, marketing, and running your business.

    Just flag the site per your designs, go back and inspect and aim in the evening. Or, check in and help on a few installs during the day.

    Am I really alone on this one?
  7. Pro-Scapes

    Pro-Scapes LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,180

    On the pierce points... yes your alone. Alot of guys dont run hubs and do T's and chains and loops which would basically be what your doing. You dont see them offering pierce points. You think allum is bad in your coastal area, try a pierce point.

    I think its great you wanna lead off with the led scene but keep in mind. They wont be for every one. On another note. Dont sell your cost short yet. Theyw ill still need to be maintained even tho you will not have to relamp. Optics will still get dirty... plants will still grow etc. Pierce points create wicking. Wicking will eat your voltage alive. I have dug up systems a year old with pierce points and grease in side only to find the cable is black.

    We all chimmed in on your splice thread which you studied forever and now you want to revert back to a DIY type of splice ? Unreal your even considering this. when systems fail in a few years your reputation your working so hard on now will be trashed.
    Why sell a 100,000 hr fixture with a 10k hr connector. Rememeber the weakest link syndrom ?
  8. Mike M

    Mike M LawnSite Bronze Member
    from usa
    Messages: 1,988

    Nate mentions a 24v system and you guys go off on him. He's a genius. Why do you think he would do this, just to play with more sparks? No! He funded his manu business with money he made as a smart installer. Wire isn't just resistant to electricity, it's friction for income, too. Voltage drop costs money to deal with on a conventional 12v system.

    The multimatic trans was made for a similar cost-savings idea: free yourself from circuit limitations of amp load.

    I'm hoping he's smart enough to already have something like a 14.5 fixed trans for an LED system.

    Billy, the pierce points you pulled up with black copper wire, you did not specify the brand and/or UL info. Not all wire nuts are created equal either, you know.

    I'm putting my ideas to the test, so stop worrying. I already order several different pierce points. I'll either soak them in a heated corrosive solution or I'll just toss them in my buddy's crab pot (trap) and see what we pull up. Then I'll hook up my true rms meter.

    I still can't believe you guys think I have a problem. This is so classic. If you guys think I'm wasting my time, just let me know and I'll keep all my results and new systems configurations to myself. Maybe I'll show them to Chris J. because he hasn't chimed in to insult me. Yet. Billy, I'm gonna keep ordering every LED FOLD gets in stock until you cry mercy. :)

    Eddie Clemens. When will he realize that LED's are the greastest thing that ever happened to controls?
  9. irrig8r

    irrig8r LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,553

    I don't know anything about phone companies using pierce points... here they don't.

    If you completely seal them in epoxy they might hold up... but why go the trouble when there are better solutions to the problem already tried and tested?

    Using pierce points is cutting corners, no matter how you try to convince yourself otherwise.

    Also, beware of downsizing wires too much... you still might want to expand a system in the future.

    And Malibu/ Intermatic transformers? If you're not selling a transformer with a warranty as long as the projected life of your LEDs then you're not thinking ahead far enough.

    IMHO, if you're going to be installing pure LED systems, you still have a responsibility to your customers, to the maker of your LED products, and to your own future business to install the best overall quality system you can...

    Mike, I think you have an opportunity to get a lot of positive local press exposure if you can push the whole energy and materials savings "green" angle.

    The reputation of LED systems depends on installers who know what they're doing. Do it right to begin with and reap greater rewards later.

    My $.02.
  10. Mike M

    Mike M LawnSite Bronze Member
    from usa
    Messages: 1,988

    Greg, I hear some promise in your tone. Kichler ain't Unique or Cast, but they are big enough to back their fixtures and transformers, and intermattic has a contractor grade transformer perfect to drive an LED system.

    It's okay to be affraid! I always told my students, courage means being affraid, but stepping forward anyways.

    I'm putting my money where my mouth is.

    Mavericks, call me! Let's be independent together! If not, I'm flyin solo.

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