Please help a young buck!

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by JDUtah, Jul 4, 2008.

  1. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    Bet you thought this thread was an anti-hunting movement didn't you? :dancing: I have a mount in the other room. A good four point mule deer my brother in law got last year. The taxidermist let his antlers sun bleach though.


    Now for the help...

    For those that have been reading, you might have picked up that I am growing frustrated with some things. The root issue is that the organic movement as represented in this forum seems to not have a solid foundation. Now I do respect and admire the building that it is trying to build, I want to get there too, but the foundation is too crumbly for me.

    When I started to jump back into the organic mindset the idea of beneficial microbes was new to me. It fit perfectly and makes sense. At first I was told that fertilizers are bad because they kill the microbes. I ask why and the only reasonable reply was that the salts kill them. Microbes shouldn't be killed because they make nutrients available to the plant. Well, I am finding that those nutrients that are available to the plant are often found in salt form! Dilemma one.

    Then the concept of compost tea. Spray and introduce teh microbes. But further learning reveals that the microbes are everywhere. It also reveals that the real point to proper microbe manament is not to spray them everywhere, but to create the envoriment for them to thrive in. I believe CT's might have some place, but if you build it they will come. A betrayel of trust again.

    Then, as I try to learn the fundamentals of things, I am critiqued to only trust particular studies, and not give credit to other, unsupported ideas. I am counseled to use peer reviewed literature. There is value to this, but the problem I have is, I have not seen, or been able to find one peer reviewed article about how fertilizers kill microbes. How salts kill microbes to be more specific.

    Back to the crumbly foundation part. It is a good thing to try to establish an earth friendly system, microbes being part of it.. but to build the idea of microbe managment on an argument that you have not shown is supported with peer reviewed literature (ferts kill microbes) while requiring others to proved the same quality of writing is iffy. Very.

    Organics is currently betraying me by saying fertilizer salt kills microbes. It simply is not the case.

    Then, the organic movement tells one to use Organic forms of fertilizers and weed control. CGM being one of them. They say it is more earth friendly. Problem is, what about the fertilizers it took to grow the corn to make the stuff? And all that other jazz. I think most people on this forum understand this principle, but still, another betrayal.

    Then, as people try to understand workings of things and particular parts of systems in increasing complexity, they are reminded to not make things more difficult then they need to be. But learning the workings of how a particular organic principle functions may help one to realize that the part is, or is not, important to the organic system. Education and understanding is important! Especially when it comes to organics... The key to keeping and selling a customer on organics is what? Educate them!

    Then as one of the parts of the system is discussed in detail it is brought up that there are NO silver bullets. However, most of the subjects end in the suggestion to just use compost. Sounds like a sly silver bullet to me.

    Then it is said that compost is food for microorganisms, hence you should topdress. But, the food was digested already!? I am not sayin it is bad... i just question the objective principles!

    Once again, I love the ideal that the organic movement is trying to build. I just grow weary of hypocrisy and selective understanding. I know people in the fert forum who have tried to jump organic but have given up after years of treading water and being tossed by every organic wave that comes along. I do not want to end up like that. The ideal is worth the effort.

    I am not pointing fingers at anyone but myself. I want to make it work, but find myself more frustrated then is productive. I don't know what else to say.
  2. JohnnyRoyale

    JohnnyRoyale LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 616

    You lost me at the "When I started part"-good luck, hope you figure it out.
  3. treegal1

    treegal1 LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,911

    the Buddha sat under a tree for seven years before he found enlightenment. your ahead of shedule, just simmer down and you will get it.

    we have always thought of ammonia as a sanitizer???
  4. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    Then one person makes avaiable a compost tea to introduce microbes while also making avaialable a product that encourages a bacteria to produce a "kills all microbes" enzyme. It is used with success to combat disease, but what about the beneificials it kills in the process? (The issue was cleaverly discussed between two individuals in two posts, but I doubt most caught it)

    on and on... ugg I need a break lol.

    Thanks Johnny
  5. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    That's the point.. peeps say chem ferts with ammonia (well ammonium and nitrate and urea that breaks down to ammonia, will kill microbes... but yet they argue that good microbes produce ammonia! It sickens me.

    And ty tree
  6. DeepGreenLawn

    DeepGreenLawn LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,372

    LOL, I was wandering when you were going to get burnt out with all that in depth studyinig. It does get tiresome. I was doing that myself, then you came along and I got to just sit back and catch the info as it came flying off by everyone else.

    The way I see as of right now... I seem to have found a company that is successful at using organic practices. They have been doing it for years and have got a good operation going. Until something else comes up, I am going to follow their lead. Yeah, it may not be perfect, nothing is, but it sure seems like a step in the right direction.

    As I get things going and put things in motion I will continuously look for options and outside information to bring in and adapt my business to. I am in the process of changing my business as we speak. I think it will be much better. This is a new concept, at least where I am, so things will change. But as of now I need to use what works and get the kinks worked out as we go. If you ask me... keep things going but don't think the way you got is the only way, things will be discovered and proven right/wrong. Just make sure your business is able to change with it and be willing to do so.
  7. treegal1

    treegal1 LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,911

    JD i think that there are more complexities than we are able to equate TOGETHER, the sum of the parts and all that BS, the next part of that is, the whole yin yang thing, it all depends on how little or Lot there is, chlorine for instance, naturally occurring at small amounts, larger quantity's are more dangerous to nature.

    to little water and we turn to dust, to much water and we drown, I take around 7-8 cups per day, some of the other crews take almost 2 gallons a day. less and its bye bye tree, more and its tree surfing.LOL 3 day weekend and its bad weather and i broke my stick:cry:

    so your going to get a that's bad response from some, and that's not enough out of others.

    you want to know how i see it, grow great plants with as little expense to our future cohabitants and have a good time doing it, that's the thing of it balances. start doing this for greed and money and your headed down that dark path again. and you wont get the results that you can get in nature!!!
    JD if the weather is nice there, go out to the woods and hang out with a plant or tree for a while, don't try to understand it just be its buddy for a while, learn from its ways. it had to adapt so many times it will reveal its needs to you!!!
  8. JohnnyRoyale

    JohnnyRoyale LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 616

    I'll have a double shot of whatever your having.!!
  9. treegal1

    treegal1 LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,911

    cheers!!! happy 4th!!!
  10. JDUtah

    JDUtah LawnSite Silver Member
    from UT
    Messages: 2,636

    Lol, Johnny,
    Mormons don't touch that stuff... unfortunately? :drinkup: JK.

    Nah while most of the things I said are questions/concerns, most of that was just letting crap out. A few hard things yesterday (well from the day before). Best glimpse is, my sister adopted. We had to take the state DCFS to court back in December to do it. Well we kicked thier booties and so they pulled some stupid stuff (with a kid that my sis had in foster) the day the adoption was finalized. We might be up for another round of us against the state. It's rediculus.

    Thanks for the care and the suggestions guys.

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