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I think I will stick to doing the work the correct way or not at all. Don't need any more drama.

I bet if you asked any excavating contractors that have been around for a while the answer would be the same.

I don't mind at all letting the "other guy" have the work that is questionable because the customer wants to save money. I don't see the upside for me to do it any other way. I don't need the work that bad.
 
Discussion starter · #42 ·
I agree. Thats why I walked away from the lower wall that the pool was going to be sitting on. More liability then I want to deal with. Sad thing is customer called and it's not over yet. The other company is unbelievable on what they are trying to pull. The customer and I spoke for awhile today both in disbelief what is taking place. Its a long story but not a surprise from what we've seen. Customer is going to have to go the legal route whuch is disappointing. One thing I didn't know you could do is tell your insurance company that you want to make a claim for damages caused by a poor installation but leave out the landscaping even with thrid party structual Engineer report on findings.
 
Based on what you write about other pool people looking at the job - sounds like the customer brought most of this on, on their own. So they can enjoy their "disbelief".

It's like the girl dating the guy that everyone warned her about. And now her heart is broken.

.
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I think I will stick to doing the work the correct way or not at all. Don't need any more drama.

I bet if you asked any excavating contractors that have been around for a while the answer would be the same.

I don't mind at all letting the "other guy" have the work that is questionable because the customer wants to save money. I don't see the upside for me to do it any other way. I don't need the work that bad.
One thing you need to keep in mind here is we're conversing via text. Only so much one is able to write.

I am notorious for wanting work to go to others.

But there are variables to everything where if a client insists on something and it won't flood any basements, cause personal injury, damage to any dwellings, or reflect poorly on us in the eyes of the neighbors - we're probably going to do it. With clauses.
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Discussion starter · #45 ·
Your spot on dvs. I had the clauses in my paperwork. But the other company didn't have any and were positive that everything would be there for years to come with no problems. The customer was sold. He should have listened to me and the other pool people so in that regard I agree but if a company says they can do it and there will be no problem then it falls on them. The customer doesn't build pools so he seek a professional company and relied on what they said. I more then anything feel bad for them. There good people and saved up a lot of money for this. But your right on the text. My documentation incase I get pulled into court is over 7 pages now on every conversation and observation so there's a lot I'm leaving out and just hitting the key points.
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They didn't have any clauses in their contract? They are at fault 100% no doubt and will loose in court for the pool repair, but what says they are responsible for your job? If they are responsible for installing a pool on uneven ground, then shouldn't you be responsible for installing a patio on uneven ground too? You say they should have had soil tests done, well how about you?

Say you build a retaining wall, holding back a large chunk of land, you finish you work and leave, all you were told to do is hold back the dirt. So you would expect, if your wall fails, to be responsible for everything on the job when you left the job site. Now what if someone builds a $1,000,000 home on the high side of the wall, your wall fails and ruins the home. Now who is responsible for the home? The builder of the retaining wall, or the builder of the home?
 
Discussion starter · #48 ·
Well insurance covered the whole thing including my landscaping. The insurance adjuster took one look at the engineers report and covered it. Now this is where the plot thickens. The pool company called and said they refuse to work if my company has any part of the job because their owner doesn't like me. (That was seriously said). The customer said see you in court because his loyalty was with me. I talked with the adjuster and he slipped up and said the owner doesn't like me because he lost and he doesn't loose. The customer said he was behind me all the way and that they were pissed because I pointed everything out. Then I got the call today from the customer saying that he had to go with the other company to rebuild my work so they would fix his pool. My wife tells me all the time that I trust way too much and am to loyal and I guess this is another example. I had over 40 hours in design and helping him get everything lined up for the insurance day to come only to be tossed to the side and have someone else get credit for my design and guys hardwork. I'm pretty disappointed but on the positive note when it falls again next year because they are redoing the retaining wall with the same block and not putting any drainage then I won't have to deal with it.
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Well insurance covered the whole thing including my landscaping. The insurance adjuster took one look at the engineers report and covered it. Now this is where the plot thickens. The pool company called and said they refuse to work if my company has any part of the job because their owner doesn't like me. (That was seriously said). The customer said see you in court because his loyalty was with me. I talked with the adjuster and he slipped up and said the owner doesn't like me because he lost and he doesn't loose. The customer said he was behind me all the way and that they were pissed because I pointed everything out. Then I got the call today from the customer saying that he had to go with the other company to rebuild my work so they would fix his pool. My wife tells me all the time that I trust way too much and am to loyal and I guess this is another example. I had over 40 hours in design and helping him get everything lined up for the insurance day to come only to be tossed to the side and have someone else get credit for my design and guys hardwork. I'm pretty disappointed but on the positive note when it falls again next year because they are redoing the retaining wall with the same block and not putting any drainage then I won't have to deal with it.
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I'm not trying to be nasty by any stretch - but dude, (spoken in a chipper, comforting tone) I went out of my way and I typed a comment in this thread telling you - that there is NO WAY the pool contractor will work with you on this repair job.

I TOLD YOU POINT BLANK :)

I dont have time to scroll back, but I remember taking my statement a step further and I even qualified my statement by explaining why. I even references that it appeared you were way to focused on wanting to see the pool contractor drown.

It doesn't matter if someone (the insurance agent) slipped up. I'm the contractor. I write the checks. My name is on the job. I'm responsible for rebuilding that job. Not the customer. Not the Man on the Moon. I'm not going to hire a contractor I don't like. Never. Ever. Ever. If I don't like you - then I certainly don't believe in you and it'll be a cold day in hell before I use you!

Anytime there are tense, negative moments, ONE UPPING (you telling the contractor the only way you would work for him is with full payment upfront), whether it's for a prospective client, an existing client, or a situation as you were a part of - you can kiss ALL chances of landing that job GOODBYE.

Trust me, no one knows better than myself.

.
 
Discussion starter · #54 ·
Maybe I'm naive but shouldn't you as a customer have a choice who does work at your house regardless of who's cutting the checks. I know if there was a company that built something I loved and wanted the exact thing recreated then I would stand my ground. I knew they wouldn't work with me and I didn't want to work with them after the bully sh$@ they tried pulling on me. It just feels like I'm being punished for being honest and doing the right thing and now all the neighbors will see the pools trucks and other landscape company trucks and not mine which they don't know the situation so I look bad in their eyes
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Maybe I'm naive but shouldn't you as a customer have a choice who does work at your house regardless of who's cutting the checks. Posted via Mobile Device
NOPE. If you as a customer wanna choose the contractors then you should act as the GC.

My customers dont have any say in who I use as a sub. I even have a clause in proposal stating that I can hire subs anytime I want whoever I want. (although I almost never use subs, but I have that clause incase I'm hospitalized, or all my employees quit at once).

As far as the neighbors seeing other trucks there - you'll learn not to try to one up others and you'll learn when to shut your mouth :) As I stated in the permeable edging thread - as you get older you get wiser you learn to just not say anything :)

Note my "Its You vs You" in my signature line
 
Discussion starter · #56 ·
I would rather shut my doors before I ever backed down to somebody blaming me for something I didn't do and tell me I did a bad job trying to shift the blame and then open end threaten me that they could take me to court. I am not an outspoken person and go with the flow but those are the buttons that will always set me off. It wasn't one uping it was stating facts that they didn't want to accept. I Garuntee anybody else would have flipped their lid fast with the way these guys were talking to me. And I never yelled and kept it professional but stood my ground and was blunt but not once raised my voice. But everything happens for a reason so we'll see what this one was
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I would rather shut my doors before I ever backed down to somebody blaming me for something I didn't do and tell me I did a bad job trying to shift the blame and then open end threaten me that they could take me to court. I am not an outspoken person and go with the flow but those are the buttons that will always set me off. It wasn't one uping it was stating facts that they didn't want to accept. I Garuntee anybody else would have flipped their lid fast with the way these guys were talking to me. And I never yelled and kept it professional but stood my ground and was blunt but not once raised my voice. But everything happens for a reason so we'll see what this one was
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I couldnt agree more, I'm the same way. Like my thread a couple weeks ago where the pool contractor wanted me to knock 30% off our job so they could mark it up. All they did was pass a lead on to me, they don't need 30%, it wasn't a project that they needed to manage. I specifically told the guy last spring that I will be happy to proce work for them but we're not discounting it and I will not work under them, and I told them that I would pay a finders fee for any jobs they send me and that I would refer them to anyone needing their type of work. So when he sent me that e-mail more or less demanding a 30% discount - my response more or less stated "you can shove your leads up your behind".

But see, here's the kicker - when you/I/we contractors stand our ground - there is a reality. And the reality is, as soon as we stand our ground - we just lost ANY chance of doing that job.

You remember me asking you if your work was done to industry standards? I asked you "is there anything substandard about your work that the contractor who redoes your work will easily discover?"

What happened in your case is you got scared that you would have to go to court, with the potential being named in the suit. Your posts made much mention of it being the pool contractor's fault and you focused on his attitude, you wanted him to be the one to burn in hell.

So, on a positive note you're not being sued, and/or you're not having to spend anytime meeting with the client's lawyers and 2 days testifying in court. (I was an expert witness in court, I had about 40 hours of my time invested in the case) Ultimately.......you're off the hook all together. That's a great thing! The wanting to be the one to re-do the work - well I call that "wishful thinking".

About 7 years ago we did a $40k hardscape job around a pool. The pool maintenance company came out for a meeting with me and the client. The owner of the pool company told a blantant lie to the Mrs. I had no choice but to call him out infront of her. I knew before doing so that me and the pool contractor would never ever have any sort of relationship from that point on.
 
Discussion starter · #58 ·
About 7 years ago we did a $40k hardscape job around a pool. The pool maintenance company came out for a meeting with me and the client. The owner of the pool company told a blantant lie to the Mrs. I had no choice but to call him out infront of her. I knew before doing so that me and the pool contractor would never ever have any sort of relationship from that point on.[/QUOTE]

Would you really want to work for that guy again because that's what I was dealing with and I wouldn't want their company on the same ground as mine. I just get irritated that other companies look at hardscape companies as almost a second class business and that we should be cheap and bend like comments when the guys were installing the pool they displaced all the customers river rock and instead of fixing it they said the landscapers could take care of it like my time was free. I really wasn't worried about my work and definatley not worried about the new company coming into redo it. They are planning on leaving all the walls and stairs and still removing all the rock base to start the compaction over again but all the base rock is part of that area so it should be interesting to see how it goes. But your right I'm happy to not be a part of it again or deal with court. It's easier for the customer to do it their way and I get that. More a case of hurt pride and in business we all know our pride can get in the way from time to time
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Everyone from homeowner to pool installer to hardscape contractor are at fault. Homeowner because he didn't do his due dilegence and get some sound advice before going ahead, pool installer for installing what almost looks like an inground pool , above ground. Lastly contractor (you) for taking on a job that even you knew was going to fail. Nasty all around.
Zedosix is dead nuts on. It all comes down to cheap price and contractors who didn't have a clue what is right and a homeowner who didn't do their homework. I'd take a wrecking ball to the whole thing. There's no drainage, improper backfill (I'm not even sure if you can backfill against a shell like that correctly). Honestly, as much as I hate to say it, they'd have been better off with a deck. The attorney's are going to have a day on this.
 
Discussion starter · #60 ·
I agree. I told the owner the other night after hearing about the wall would have no drainage that he should forget about the pool and told him it would fail again without a doubt and he said he understood that but his wife really wanted it so now its completely on him. I've only been in a family business of manufacturing my whole life so I know ins and outs of business but that was business to business. I've only been in business for 5 years and dealing with the end product and actual consumers is much different and I definatley have a lot to learn yet and took some good lessons from this deal. Biggest lesson is to not be afraid to walk away from a job if I think it's going to be trouble in the future. I really appreciate everyone's feedback and insight
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