pre on thin bermuda and centipede

grassmasterswilson

LawnSite Fanatic
Location
nc
i posted on this earlier and can't find it, or just missed it in the search.

i've got some thin bermuda and centipede lawns. been using barricade the last few years, but it inhibits root growth and lateral spreading.

What are the other cost effective options? Gallery? maybe a reduces rate or one app instead of a split app of barricade? With the introduction of celcius maybe no pre? Any recommendations or advice would be great
 

Turf Dawg

LawnSite Gold Member
How thin you talking about. On the new reeeel thin lawns I do not use any pre at first. The so so ones I will use Simazine. The ones that just need some help and thicking up I go ahead and use Prodiamine.
The Gallery is just going to stop broadleaves. I cannot prove it but I think the amount of Prodiamine you use [rate] just determines how long it is going to last, not that more kills roots "deader". Their is a pre [cannot remember the name off hand] that is not suppost to affect the Bermuda root system, but I have never tried it or priced it.
 

greendoctor

LawnSite Fanatic
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
Thin lawns. No preemergent. I agree with the simazine or prodiamine. Gallery is a very good choice for broadleaves. Celsius and the other sulfonylurea herbicides also have substantial preemergent activity. The main goal of the program should be getting those thin lawns to thicken up. I often get lawns that are both thin and full of weeds. No preemergent for those until the grass resembles green carpet. This is when a lawn gets put on a 14 day liquid fertilizer program for the first 45-60 days.
 
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grassmasterswilson

LawnSite Fanatic
Location
nc
thanks guys. i have a few lawns that got hit by spring dead spot and they didn't seem to recover as fast or as well as they should have. i've been using prodiamine at 1.25 lbs per acre in a split app. It does very good and i've been pleased. if it is a new customer and their lawn is really a mess i discuss with them the pros and cons of using pre in the first 2 rounds...often i find it better to do no pre and it will thicken up better.

So what i'm hearing is to stick with the prodiamine and i should be ok. between fertilizations and good growing conditions it should recover and fill in nicely. On some thin patches I've thought of skipping the pre and cutting off the boom. I'm also guessing a half rate of pre would not do anything but wear off faster than normal.
 

ArTurf

LawnSite Fanatic
Location
Ark
I maintain all 4 warm season grasses and do not use any pre other than simazine in the late fall. I concentrate on growing and creating healthy grass which naturally out competes weeds. I do use post emergent apps of course. I have used this approach at the suggestions of others on this site with great results. The dead spots you are seeing in centipede may be the pre actually killing the grass IMO. I think many times we in the business forget the art of growing healthy grass and just think in terms of the chemical approach. I will admit I may have to go back to using some pre on bermuda for the crabgrass.
 

greendoctor

LawnSite Fanatic
Location
Honolulu, Hawaii
Grassmaster, what are you feeding your centipede with? I know it does not like urea nitrogen or potassium chloride. It does benefit from potassium and an acid forming source of nitrogen. The fertilizer should also be low or no phosphorus as well. Too much phosphorus actually causes all kinds of problems with centipede that other types of grass do not get. Another issue with centipede is height of cut. 2-3 inches is good. Some people make the mistake of cutting it shorter and shorter at each mowing. Except for persistent crabgrass, goosegrass, or broadleaf weeds, I do not make calender applications of preemergents. They are only a tool of last resort if thickening up a lawn with good fertilization is not enough.
 

RAlmaroad

LawnSite Silver Member
Location
SC
One of my clients sold her house, the new owner probably will not have me to fertilize and maintain it the lawn. It is centipede, so I will watch it this season for changes. The lawn is fully irrigated from a shallow well so it will probably only get water. Proper mowing will not be realized. I hate to see all of this take place on a pretty lawn. With theh economic downturn and people just trying to make ends meet; something will suffer most likely their lawn. With all of this in mind, I expect to see this lawn decline. This fall I'll stop by again and check on it. I've already spoken with the new owner and they were not open to ANY maintenance. From what I saw at a glance, they do not even own a proper lawn mower.
Sometimes centipede will spit in your face. One can maintain a beautiful regiment for years and the grass will flourish. Keeping it at a lower pH is difficult on the coast. Sometimes it will thin in a spot where the calcium levels are very high for various reasons. Most of the time it is due to folks adding lime with improper calibrations or a pH reading that was proper for centipede and the owners thought is was too low and on and on and on. Sometimes a spot will just die for now reason almost as if it had been hit with roundup--I had that happen--. I checked for grubs, a few but not excessive. so I just replaced that spot with St. Augustine. I know, I know a spotty lawn but this was near the road and not even part of the lawn proper. I even have a spot where St. Augustine trimming are put when the stolons begin to creep into beds. They have a few roots and a little soil. So I place them in a good place that gets water that I use for turf repairs--Almost like a mini turf farm.
Then again over fertilization of a proper fertilize could be at fault but way out there on a limb. Centipede can be harmed with too much Nitrogen. By it's nature it will do well without too much nitrogen. It does need that potassium nitrate and micros. There's another great product called Recovery that works extremely well on lawn that have been damaged with over-fertilization or fungi. Fungus is another big problem for centipede when the pH is too high. Could be brown patch or another fungus hitting it causing thinning. Withholding water could help with the brown patch but better still is to start a fungus program way early and stick with it on known thinning areas.
I've found that there is NO one formula for all like lawns--They all need a prescription for their individual growing habit and area. There are some general things to do but the amount is so different that could go from None to every other week. I actually have section of the log book that details every lawn, flower bed, and foundation planting.
So at the end of the day, check the pH of the thinning spots, the type of fertilizer and how much, and for NOT SEEN by eye problems.
 
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grassmasterswilson

LawnSite Fanatic
Location
nc
I use simazine as my fall pre emergent. What about using simazine or atrazine as the spring pre on warm season lawns? Not sure the yearly rate, but would a single or split app of this in the spring do much for prevention? With the introduction of celcius i'm now able to treat in the hot summers here without worry of burn.
 

RAlmaroad

LawnSite Silver Member
Location
SC
I use simazine as my fall pre emergent. What about using simazine or atrazine as the spring pre on warm season lawns? Not sure the yearly rate, but would a single or split app of this in the spring do much for prevention? With the introduction of celcius i'm now able to treat in the hot summers here without worry of burn.
I really like Celsius--It's somewhat like a stepsister to lots of other chemicals to treat some hard to kill stuff. If grass is growing well; Image is good and does not burn. Atrazine moves so easily in the soil and could damage foundation plantings or beds. I also us it in the fall but even then in the back of my mind, I'm thinking about near bye growth. And with that in mind; temps can really up quickly on the coast and with the Atrazine in the soil, I would worry when the temps start to get close to 85. I've almost quit expect for a late fall or winter weed applications. Raleigh area may be a little more stable.
 

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