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Rider on Sprayer Calibration... I dont get it?

Discussion in 'Pesticide & Herbicide Application' started by Terraformer, Apr 10, 2008.

  1. Terraformer

    Terraformer LawnSite Member
    Messages: 184

    I'm in the market for one of them fancy, expensive, ride-on units, but whenever I look at the sprayer spec's they run 30 - 35 oz. per 1000 sq. ft. (Example: PG Magnum is 30 oz.). Here's the part I don't get... maybe it's me. I use many of PBI/Gordon's herbicides and most of them require a minimum of 1/2 gallon of water, per 1000 sq. ft., to deliver the herbicide. If I was to mix based on the sprayer capability, 30 oz. per 1000 sq. ft., technically I would be breaking the law.

    I'm just using PG as an example, not picking on them. Some of the forthcoming ride-on's are also similar in volume. To get the proper rate, going slower than 3.5 MPH doesn't seem like an option - nor does it make sense for productivity! Can changing the tip to more than double the rate solve the legal issue? Seems like a stretch for a 2 GPM pump especially if you require agitation.

    What am I missing? What are you guys doing? Do you just work within the limitations?

  2. GravelyGuy

    GravelyGuy LawnSite Silver Member
    from Indiana
    Messages: 2,548

    I wondered the same thing when I first started reading about the ride on sprayers.

    From what I get out of it, these guys make low volume applications a higher rate of active ingredient, which is technically going against the label, but they do it IPM style.
  3. grassman177

    grassman177 LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 9,795

    there has been alot of stink about those machines in the goveerment. they do break the law as far as label rates go on most herbicides. the zspray gives you a choice of nozzles and we got 1.5 to 3 gpm nozzles or whatever the sizes were. anyways, we use the ones that give is a 1/2 gal per 1000 rate at the speed we are traveling. this keeps is within range.
  4. Homer52

    Homer52 LawnSite Member
    from Midwest
    Messages: 4

    PBI Gordon's Trimec 992 for example has a range of 5 to 220 gal per acre, which works out to .115 gal per 1000 square feet, or 14.72 oz per 1000 squaare feet. Works great in my Turf Tracker Time Machine.
  5. Terraformer

    Terraformer LawnSite Member
    Messages: 184

    Gravelguy and Grassman - thanks for the quick reply. For a moment I was thinking I slipped a gear. I spent all last night thinking about this and it was bugging me. I knew that Z-spray offered higher volumes and for that reason didn't use it as an example. However, if a wanted to spray a 5 MPH it appears the Z would be pushed too - I'll look at it again.

    It really gripes me that manufacturers, existing and upcoming, of ride-on sprayer's expect people to pay $5,000 plus for equipment that not legal. I know that carrying 20 gallons of water/mix - for a measly 10K - is an egineering and manufacturing problem for them, but who's going to pay the fine when an applicator get busted? Alternatively they could lobby chemical companies and the EPA to get the laws changed for low volume spraying. Doing nothing is NOT acceptable!

    Guess I crabby... it's been raining for days here!
  6. Terraformer

    Terraformer LawnSite Member
    Messages: 184

    Homer you are correct about 992, and that is why I didn't say "all" PBI/Gordon products. That said... if Tupersan needed to be added to the 992mix; a very common thing to do, or use it standalone, it still wouldn't be legal under the scenario I described earlier. I don't know about the Time Machine's capabilities.
  7. sclawndr

    sclawndr LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 326

    You're on label if you apply within the recommended rate per thousand square feet and if you follow the guidelines for handling, storage and disposal. The amount of water you spray with is a recommendation for maximum efficacy. The law only says that you have to use it in a manner consistent with the label, which the low volume spray equipment does.

    That said, you can upgrade a PG to spray 1 gallon per thousand if you'd prefer. A lot of people like to spray more volume to try to increase coverage. The effectiveness of the mix will depend more on the specific gravity of the product than anything else.
  8. Terraformer

    Terraformer LawnSite Member
    Messages: 184

    I understand your point and will agree there are some grey areas in EPA law... gee go figure! However, in good'ol Wisconsin they harp on "the label is the law" at every turn. Since many products are specific as to the minimum and maximum amout of carrier/water required for an application, not following ithe label could be construed as a violation.

    Here's a recent example how far things are being taken, and I quote "If you pour boiling water onto ants that makes it a pesticide, and if you don't follow all certification, licensing, notification and posting laws you have broken the law." Good one huh!
  9. pieperlc

    pieperlc LawnSite Senior Member
    from Midwest
    Messages: 545

    You're right being limited in what you can spray with the low volume ride-ons. If you need higher volume, than a ride-on isn't for you. There are numerous herbicides that you can use low volume. Trimec 992 and speedzone are the herbicides of choice for me since buying the perma green. There are other herbicides out there that can be used at the low volume rates if you do a little research you may find more than you expect. I believe lesco has one or two that they label. I am a little leary on using something in the PG that is labeled for a higher volume. I think the Dept of Ag would have no problem giving anybody a ticket for that. It probably depends on the mood of the enforcement officer. As far as pre-emergent herbicides go, a ride-on isn't designed to spray those chemicals. If you need that capability, don't spend the money for a ride-on.
  10. rcreech

    rcreech Sponsor
    Male, from OHIO
    Messages: 6,163


    I was good talking to you tonight! I am posting on here my points on this topic as I am a very big advocate of low volume spraying.

    As we discussed, when following the law it depends on what product you are using.

    Very few labels state you MUST use a min or max gallons/K. MOST labels state a RECOMMENED rate.

    The difference is.....if a label states that there is a minimum then the your state MAY say you are off label. But if it DOES NOT state a minimum then it is fair game.

    When talking to my state guys they could care less about the amount of carrier used for a prouduct. They ONLY care about the AI/given area.

    The less water you use the better. That is less you have to handle and also less time filling.

    If you are using a product with a minimum gallons on the label my recommendation is to swith to a product that doesn't contain a min. gallons!

    Also, as we discussed contact you state and ask them point blank and see what they say.
    You may be worrying about nothing as the state may not care about the volume of carrier just like ours here in OH.

    Let us know what you guys learn. I think it would be neat to see how the stated differ on this topic.

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