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Sod Web Worms!!!!!!!!!

28K views 80 replies 12 participants last post by  Mike_LS 
#1 ·
They are reaking havoc here in the northeast, I'm sure its the same elsewhere. Whats a good remedy to suggest to your customers. Something simple? I am not a PCO, therefore I will not treat of course, but they are asking about the problem.
 
#3 ·
If your customers can do their own lawns as well as PCO, then they should know the problem and the answer is the way I see it. Network with a local PCO and have the at the ready to diagnose and fix problems for customers for you. But to answer your question a bifen spray applied correctly when you first start to see damage or notice their feces should help suppress them. But again the key is applying the product correctly and if they are having a hard time with sod web worms then they should let a PCO handle their lawn.
 
#4 ·
I've seen the moths around here on my home lawn, but today I found a line army worm. No damage as of yet...first saw the moths months ago. I'm guess I will treat next season.
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#5 ·
There's no need to use bifenthrin which has no residual and performs poor under rain wet conditions. Besides, webworms are the least to worry about in terms of "turf damaging insects". All they will do is eat some foliage and go away. The worst that can happen is some unwanted weeds emerge. Stick with cheap soap detergent this time of year. They'll be gone soon enough.
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#6 ·
There's no need to use bifenthrin which has no residual and performs poor under rain wet conditions. Besides, webworms are the least to worry about in terms of "turf damaging insects".
First would bifen not work well if applied correctly as you are are spraying it directly into the area the insect is actively feeding, the blades and thatchy area. Water to a certain extent will ensure the product gets where it needs to as it will wash over them on its way down correct?

All they will do is eat some foliage and go away. The worst that can happen is some unwanted weeds emerge. Stick with cheap soap detergent this time of year. They'll be gone soon enough.
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I have a couple issues with this statement, not meaning to bust your balls, but I have seen webworm damage make newer turf not recover over the years. Turf which has seemed to be newly established such as newer established sod...does not seem to have the resources to recover as well as more established turf from webworm damange.
Webworm damage and the "worst that can happen is some unwanted weeds" could mean a chance in many circumstances for Bermuda to make itself present. So unwanted weeds now become a issue that will haunt your lawn for awhile.
Last but not least - does applying laundry detergents to the home lawn...does that not risk the chance of putting unneeded P into the lawn/creating a possible leaching situation among many other unknows? I went to my laundry room and read my label of tide. No where on it did it give directions for proper control of TS webworms. So I went to my trailer and pulled out my 7.9% bifen and guess what...there was directions on how to apply to turf for TS webworms.
 
#7 ·
Poet, whats with the busting balls of my customers? No need for the antics, just had a friendly question. Web worms are pretty easy to spot even for a customer. Seeing as I am not a PCO, as I stated earlier I don't know what to suggest, hence why I asked. I didn't know if just telling them to put down a granular bug product would cover it or if it needed something specific. Just needed some advice.
 
#8 ·
I'm not sure if you know how bifenthrin works. When you shake your bifen before you mix, your hoping to mix all the molecules around so when you pour your .5 or .75oz of product into your gallon you have substantial quantities out to be effective. Now throw into account the thatch layer, thick or thin this will effect molecule distribution along with water volume and since webworms don't ingest the molecule (because they are ectoskeleton it absorbs in their system and disrupts their central nervous system you are hoping they contact each other. Soap spreads the entire area insuring contact occurs. Ectoskeleton insects no like soap. Now for "damage ". Turf that has trouble recovering from webworms has underlying issues. If you mow with dull blades you will shred the turf blade tissue causing premature senescence. The plant will shed this foliage completely and it is recoverable unless there are underlying issues. As for just some unwanted weeds. Yes you could get Bermuda or any number of weeds which already exist (as seed) in the soil for every square yard of soil contains about 1,200,000 seeds waiting their turn to germinate under favorable conditions. Meaning Bermuda seeds are already there dormant. Webworm activity doesn't dictate which weeds emerge. It would have happened eventually.
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#9 · (Edited)
Wasn't gonna go there but wouldn't be me. As for the P in my detergent suggestion I also mentioned the other benefits. I should send a picture. After my washing machine drains into the landscape like any you use also, my swordfern sits at end of the drain pipe and looks SWEET! I guess If I direct my drain pipe to my webworm effected area you'd be good.
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#10 ·
Where Floratam or other fast growing variety can recover quickly, some of the slower growing, dwarf varieties of St Augustine do have trouble recovering from worm damage. Webworms and armyworms both. If they mow it down, the runners don't care to be exposed to that amount of direct sunlight. You end up with a few days without rain, and bam, you have a mess. My front yard has had numerous outbreaks over the past two years. Sometimes it's not that bad, other times the damage is significant.
 
#11 ·
Right, but again, underlying issues. Dwarf varieties, mainly Seville tends to be thatchy from too much nitrogen over it's life. Dwarf varieties tend to have a thatch layer of dead and live stolins. This is already an inherent problem for stolins with roots exposed to the air, they tend to struggle to exist. All the webworms do is expose this issue which will also occur from heavy frost. These same areas will have issues webworms or not. Thatch is why these areas don't recover easily not severe webworms. Armyworms mabe, but not webworms.
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#12 ·
Laundry detergents in the US no longer contain P...it was banned.
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#13 ·
Right, but again, underlying issues. Dwarf varieties, mainly Seville tends to be thatchy from too much nitrogen over it's life. Dwarf varieties tend to have a thatch layer of dead and live stolins. This is already an inherent problem for stolins with roots exposed to the air, they tend to struggle to exist. All the webworms do is expose this issue which will also occur from heavy frost. These same areas will have issues webworms or not. Thatch is why these areas don't recover easily not severe webworms. Armyworms mabe, but not webworms.
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Turf,

first welcome to the forum. Second I do not doubt your guidance as you appear to understand this stuff better than the common lawn guy like me. However I have yet to see a PCO driving around town with a bucket of tide on the back of their truck.
You concern over getting it into the thatch - would that not be covered with a surfactant added to the bifen. Just asking because this is the most common approach I see to webworms over the years. Besides, have you seen how damn expensive tide has become :confused::confused:
 
#14 ·
Poet, whats with the busting balls of my customers? No need for the antics, just had a friendly question. Web worms are pretty easy to spot even for a customer. Seeing as I am not a PCO, as I stated earlier I don't know what to suggest, hence why I asked. I didn't know if just telling them to put down a granular bug product would cover it or if it needed something specific. Just needed some advice.
No ball busting really just a state of mind. Customer that think they can do it all usually fail, not always but a good enough time, but then they expect you are the lawn guy to have all the answers....so unless your are a card holder PCO too..the chances your information is maybe or may not be correct. Why waste your time with customers asking questions that is not relative to what you are hire to due. I hate customers who ask me question not related to what I do. Lots of times in the past I find these type of customers feel they know more than you anyway...but will waste your time asking questions only to never take your advice. You know what I am saying. If they want advice on subject like this, they should hire a PCO who is qualified. If they want mediocre advice that may or may not be true...send them here to LS.
 
#15 ·
Tide would be bad, too much fragrant. That's why I suggested arm & hammer. Won't stress the turf. It is also a natural surfactant. You would see a very experienced PCO use this method, ever hear of BMP. If so do you understand it. Just saying bifenthrin for catts is a low experience suggestion. Something like M - PEDE will perform much better. Not trying to get on anybodys bad side but there is probably a general belief here you have to wait 2 weeks to sod after applying glyphosphate.
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#16 · (Edited)
You want to bust my ball's hey I like challenges. Just some background (1988-1991 tru-green tech before chemlawn in picture. Bad merger. 1991-1992 took care of Peabody hotel for Ground Control greatest full service company of all time. 1992-1997 field working opps manager, lead tech for large full service providers. 1997-2010 full blown LESCO GUY.2010-current, consultant. All during this practicing BMP and reporting to orange county.) Just want to open minds. Sometimes unorthodox works. Just need enough experience to know to suggest. Me wana play not fight.
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#18 ·
There is no reason. It's not a registered pesticide or every time someone washed their vehicle's and the detergent of choice went into the water system or in the soil, if washed on non-cement we would have to report it. thank god. Listen if you understand how resistance to pesticides evolves it would only be logical to let home owners use something that if poorly applied will not add to another molecule becoming useless. I read in another thread an analogy. " Why should I have to have license to apply insecticides, I don't need to be a licensed plumber to fix the plumbing in my house." Bad analogy! successful pesticide applications require a knowledge of science. Instead of a plumber should have used a DR. I'm not a human doctor but I would only use a licensed DR to perform medical aid I would not prescribe medicine for which I don't understand the AI.
 
#19 ·
There is no reason. It's not a registered pesticide or every time someone washed their vehicle's and the detergent of choice went into the water system or in the soil, if washed on non-cement we would have to report it. thank god. Listen if you understand how resistance to pesticides evolves it would only be logical to let home owners use something that if poorly applied will not add to another molecule becoming useless. I read in another thread an analogy. " Why should I have to have license to apply insecticides, I don't need to be a licensed plumber to fix the plumbing in my house." Bad analogy! successful pesticide applications require a knowledge of science. Instead of a plumber should have used a DR. I'm not a human doctor but I would only use a licensed DR to perform medical aid I would not prescribe medicine for which I don't understand the AI.
HO can do a lot of things but as a contractor, I can not put down detergent as a pest control agent.

The EPA regulates such things if you make the claim it will control pest. Also, everything in the mix has to be listed if a pest control application is made even if you are not using a registered product.
 
#20 ·
I, as a certified operator won't be putting down soap to control TSW (ELS comments above are correct IMO). If Joe homeowner wants to do that it's his business. Our company will indeed apply Bifen (or other labeled products) to manage TSW numbers when required. Likely our customers would be more satisfied with that.

TurfMD 101- Exoskeleton? Stolons? If you want to be the expert fine, how about utilizing correct terminology / spelling? For the record: I'm state certified in all four categories since June 1978. I have 3 degrees (2 undergraduate, 1 Graduate), over 40 years experience, owned my own PC business, Manager at WDW in Pest Management for 11 years, Extension Agent IFAS in South Florida, written and published articles and delivered countless programs. Ever heard of spell check? Now, I'm not disputing everything you said BUT you're not the only knowledgeable person here. You may wish to keep that in mind. Good day Sir.
 
#21 ·
That's why your not using it as an insecticide. It's signal word is caution labeled as surfactant. Wetting agents usually are not recorded. But it's a great product enhancer. Wonder how many customers have ants when they get an above ground treatment of termidor.
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#23 ·
TurfMD 101- Exoskeleton? Stolons? If you want to be the expert fine, how about utilizing correct terminology / spelling? For the record: I'm state certified in all four categories since June 1978. I have 3 degrees (2 undergraduate, 1 Graduate), over 40 years experience, owned my own PC business, Manager at WDW in Pest Management for 11 years, Extension Agent IFAS in South Florida, written and published articles and delivered countless programs. Ever heard of spell check? Now, I'm not disputing everything you said BUT you're not the only knowledgeable person here. You may wish to keep that in mind. Good day Sir.
Wow that was harsh; I'd like to see you and Ric go at it in an ego throwdown. :rolleyes:
 
#24 ·
I, as a certified operator won't be putting down soap to control TSW (ELS comments above are correct IMO). If Joe homeowner wants to do that it's his business. Our company will indeed apply Bifen (or other labeled products) to manage TSW numbers when required. Likely our customers would be more satisfied with that.

TurfMD 101- Exoskeleton? Stolons? If you want to be the expert fine, how about utilizing correct terminology / spelling? For the record: I'm state certified in all four categories since June 1978. I have 3 degrees (2 undergraduate, 1 Graduate), over 40 years experience, owned my own PC business, Manager at WDW in Pest Management for 11 years, Extension Agent IFAS in South Florida, written and published articles and delivered countless programs. Ever heard of spell check? Now, I'm not disputing everything you said BUT you're not the only knowledgeable person here. You may wish to keep that in mind. Good day Sir.
1) So I guess you don't use baking soda for crabgrass right? I think your problem is you are too book experienced. Closed minded. If the label says it, it must be true. you've spent to much time learning what other people say vs what your over 40 years of experience tells you. I roll my own way, never cut and paste. Your short changing your customers by staying in the box. My customers prefer a more natural control than a synthetic pyrethroid that's worn out, over used and not a true residual. You use it because its cheap. Talstar has a better molecule, too much $ ay. I'm not saying it works but most would agree it works better. If I were you I would be upset to. I'm a guy who never went to (school) for this. Well your kind of edumacation (check spelling pls). My school from 18 to 45 has been in the landscape. I pay attention, remember things and how the environment works from record rains to record droughts and anything in between. I've never read many labels, though I know most products by what they "really" do not what controlled test study's show or labels tell me. I'm open minded. If I thought I was the most knowledgeable person here I would probably use spell check to prove it, but I don't. So that settles that. Oh, I don't want to be THE expert but I am an EXPERT. I'm not trying to publish anything here or I would be really be letting it role. I'm saving some for later. The fact is I never visit my customers only phone contact or e-mailed pictures from them. I usually take an account that's fed-up with poor results from different services. After 6 to 8 weeks their landscapes are on cruise control. My customers almost never use insecticides or herbicides. I guide them over the phone, never visit them and their always asked who they have for service because their landscape screams green under all environmental adversity. Then I get another lead. I mean account. The fact is my customers landscapes out perform ones visited 6-7 times a year by techs. I'm very proactive when it comes to potential landscape failures. Yea i'm that good. So do I think i'm an expert, YES. Can I spell good, ( I mean well ) NO. Since spelling has nothing to do with keeping landscapes healthy and problem free. I guess your school taught good spelling. My school taught me the necessary things beyond spelling. Good day to you Sir! P.S. keep up on applying pesticides that seems to work best for YOU.
 
#25 ·
You guys are so literal. Ok I'm self taught. That doesn't mean I have no certificates. I've attended many classes. Because I needed the paper. Not the info.

OK, I confess the only label I read front to back was Round -Up pro liq. Other than that AI's rates, what to hit & what not to hit.

I'm that good and I'd only have to prove it if I was trying to get $ from you. The one's that pay me know. That's what matters.
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#26 ·
I am self taught on many things. I also come here to learn, and share. There are plenty of helpful experts on this site.

I promote IPM, I believe that pest will be best but the best defense is healthy plants. While I like safer products, there is no reason to use something as far off label as Laundry Detergent for pest control. The EPA is pretty liberal with Minimum Risk Pesticides but there are still rules.

There are also some very effective minimum risk products out there for insects. I will stick to them and charge accordingly.
 
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