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Soil Conditions Matter???

26K views 120 replies 11 participants last post by  Mike_LS 
#1 ·
Should we consider different strategies for building the excellenct soil structure we'd like to see, in accordance with,,, different soil textures???

Or,,, can we just go ahead and apply any of the long list of products(organic) and eventually we get the soil we want regardless of where we started from???

Organic product salesmen give us the impression that it is just that simple, only it takes time...

For those who would bash, then let's first answer the Y/N part of the question ,,, THEN,,, move on toward the Why/Whynot,,, part of the question,,, THEN,,, go ahead and bash, if you must... but this is a serious topic that REQUIRES serious thought... :)
 
#3 ·
Google and look at the soil survey for the area you are working to find out what you need to use to help the soil. If its your on property you could get a soil sample done.
Thinking more along the lines of building SOM and soil structure, but I have some lawns that are sandier than others and need to adjust accordingly... at least I believe I do...
Recycling the clippings helps all of them but that goes only so far, and I've even gotten to the point that additional compost doesn't make a big difference anymore either...

I've read a claim about soils structure under turf doesn't change easily and perhaps not at all, but I would like to see better perculation on some lawns and better water retention in others...

Therefore wondering if anyone out there noticed if any changes were taking place in the soils in regards to product used... corn meal for exa., does it build structures in sandy soils??? I might give that a try this coming year to increase water holding capacity on one sandy lot... there's compost there already, but still unimpressive... :)
 
#5 ·
Grass types that produce more thatch. Some chickin do doo pellets. Can we make it any more simple???
Thatch is a tight dense mat of living and dead roots and stems that grow above the soil... not a desirable scenario at all...
On the other hand,,, soils that perculate adequately, allowing your water soluable ferts to work their way deeper into the rootzone is going to increase the mass of deeper roots, which means a lot better scenario...
Would you agree with that? or do you intentionally grow surface thatch???

Nothing wrong with chicken poo,,, but what does it do for soil structure???
 
#6 ·
Downward and expanding root development ability, is disabled by thatch which has caused uptake disruption in the poor root tissue sitting in the thatch. During drought conditions. Even with deep roots, water and nutrients trying to enter the plant are dismantled for proper feeding, it functions but it as if you were trying to eat while being CHOKED.
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#8 ·
Actually it is the N being trapped at the surface that encourages roots to grow upward instead of down into the soil... that is why aeration is used to punch holes in the thatch and allow water and NPK to get down into the depths and feed the roots below the surface of the thatch layer...
There might be confusion as to the definition of thatch and dead grass clippings... check this out...

http://urbanext.illinois.edu/lawnchallenge/lesson5.html

* "Thatch in lawns is often misunderstood; both its cause and control. Some lawns have serious thatch problems while others do not. Thatch is a layer of living and dead organic matter that occurs between the green matter and the soil surface. Excessive thatch (over 1/2 inch thick) creates a favorable environment for pests and disease, an unfavorable growing environment for grass roots, and can interfere with some lawn care practices. " *
 
#9 ·
Downward and expanding root development ability, is disabled by thatch which has caused uptake disruption in the poor root tissue sitting in the thatch. During drought conditions. Even with deep roots, water and nutrients trying to enter the plant are dismantled for proper feeding, it functions but it as if you were trying to eat while being CHOKED.
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That's a pretty good mental picture in describing why thatch, once it starts continually build and eventually, ALL the food and water is consumed at the surface...

How do you think that your irrigation strategy, of irrigating ONLY when water stressed,,, affects the development of the 'thatch' as described in the IL ext. article???
And better yet,,, do you believe that this type of thatch can be remediated, by switching to your irrigation strategy??? :)
 
#10 ·
Improve soils low in organic matter with topdressed organic matter.

Accelerate the breakdown of long chain carbon with nitrogen.


Don't you think chicken poo pellets add both nitrogen and organic matter?


Never had an issue in the past with Thatch thicker than 1/2 inch here in my neck of the woods, so I will not go into the issues that we do not have.

I have seen lawns here with less than 1/2 inch of thatch all too often and believe too much N had broken down the Carbon in the soils resulting with too low levels ie. C/N ratios in favor of N. Not sustainable.........Remember the "Dust Bowl". (Thanks Joel from Earthworks)

The Addition of organic matter in the form of Chicken poo or bio-solids can address the accelerated breakdown of C from too much N.

Keep C/N ratios in balance.


Soil conditions DO matter.
 
#11 ·
That's fine that we got the definition of thatch out of the way... what I'm talking about is the soil... how is the soil doing 1" down, 2" down,, and 3" down???

That is what the OP is all about... thatch was just a side note that does not directly apply... :)
 
#12 ·
That's a pretty good mental picture in describing why thatch, once it starts continually build and eventually, ALL the food and water is consumed at the surface...

How do you think that your irrigation strategy, of irrigating ONLY when water stressed,,, affects the development of the 'thatch' as described in the IL ext. article???
And better yet,,, do you believe that this type of thatch can be remediated, by switching to your irrigation strategy??? :)
It's all based on wilt, more than drought. Wilt is the start of drought. Drought grows roots. The deepth of the roots with healthy tissued feeders which have hopefully developed during spring VS depth of soil dryness dimensionalized because, soil does not dry out horizontally, downward, evenly. That with root depth dimensionalized dictate, which areas will show drought first. The shallow ones and so fourth. When 40% to 50% of a 100% become wilted. There's your shallow root area. Work on them. Catch up to the other 60% not wilted yet, to become equal in wilt. Then it will apply best. Rules do apply! You will get some overwatering. But that will disappear. Controlled with rain fall. MANUALLY! The times will become longer between intervals and mowing will effect. But this, UN spoiled way gives strength,,, without extra food.

St. Aug thatch, would be. Seville, any dwarf. Variety. Ooollllddd St. Aug lawns and mostly shady areas. These prime areas favor the CHOKER TISSUE issues with wilt sooner than soil conditions would dictate. Overwatering can also cause CTI NEGATIVE EFFECTS.

Sanding with white builder type sand, brings root to plant soil contact. Only way to prolong drought in any scenario.

IMHO, N applied to dwarf varietys of ST. Aug,,, WILL CREATE CTI. Minimal, minimal N. OK. Mostly MOP w/ minor. Or the ultimate MILORGANITE!
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#13 · (Edited)
WATER WHEN WILT IS A EXPERIENCED MANAGED EVENT. Can be taught,, but not if you believe in schedules,,, or having the ability to schedule random events. Bet you can't do it without waste and it takes more hands on. "WASTE"!!!
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#14 ·
Does St. Aug build thatch the same way as KBG does,,, as described by the following:
* " Thatch is a layer of tightly intermingled living and dead grass stems and roots which develops between the soil surface and green vegetation, says David Robson, University of Illinois Extension horticulture educator, Springfield Center." *

The concept I'm working with as far as soil structure building deeper into the soil, involves the idea of drying the surface while keeping the depths moist,,, just as you are promoting...
If your St Aug. is thatching over with stems and roots all intertwining at the surface above[/]b the soil level, becuz that is where the water sits every 2-3 days,,, then I think we're both talking about the same thing as far as THATCH goes...
In theory,,, thatch would stop growing upward like that if it were dry for 4-6 days before the next irrigation event, and eventually the dead material in the thatch would rot away and become plant food as well...

Soil structure builds from the surface downward,,, and I believe that as the thatch dissolves into the soil itself that the sol structure would actually begin to form under the thatch layer... just as one might find aggregates forming under a mulch layer in the garden...

That is why I'm interested in whether or not your SA develops thatch where your watering system is in place... :)
 
#15 ·
My observance has thought, that soil surface tention, is the bases for thatch to quantify development. By the way, we do agree on thatch by your defining of it.

Then, throw in someone,,, with something,,, causing damage to the foliage,,, the foliage doesn't damage itself so it is most likely,,, MAN MADE. This will cause UN natural, premature desire by the plant to, "DROP FOLIAGE". Faster than natural,,, disrupting cycling performance. "Health soil is like your stomach". It gives a functioning organic existence,,, the ability to process tools to support life. Very importante soil is. Because, POOR ACTIONS BY MAN OCCUR... Daily... For $!
Its an evil necessary. Many factors apply to soil surface tension development,,, but few are common. Earthworms good. The just bring the other necessary evil!

Know how to tell when you have shallow roots even though you don't experience drought? "ITS MUDDY". That's the part left out of my soil, moisture, root thing.
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#16 ·
Dwarfs problems are thatch with a spongy layer of dead and live runners all holding roots up in poor, non soil, non survivable situation.
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#18 ·
I feel the same way as Joel does. :) It's amusing how conventional guys are starting to catch up with was long held in disdain by the industry and now are calling it "new".

BTW, Joel took a lot of grief when he was at Rutgers.
 
#19 ·
I'm not sure I would put much stock into anything Joel Simmons has to say. His poor understanding of soils rendered him speechless when Dr. Schlossberg from Penn State pointed out that his attachment to BCSR was BS.

But, on a larger note, I don't think anyone posting on this thread adequately understands thatch. In lawn care, thatch isn't *that* big of a deal! I've seen some lawns over the years that were too thatchy, but those were few and far between. Remember, thatch can only be produced by an actively growing plant. If you have thin spots or poor growing conditions, you don't have thatch production!

Thatch management is a huge issue in intensively managed golf and athletic turf, but isn't much of an issue in lawns.
 
#20 ·
I'm not sure I would put much stock into anything Joel Simmons has to say. His poor understanding of soils rendered him speechless when Dr. Schlossberg from Penn State pointed out that his attachment to BCSR was BS.

But, on a larger note, I don't think anyone posting on this thread adequately understands thatch. In lawn care, thatch isn't *that* big of a deal! I've seen some lawns over the years that were too thatchy, but those were few and far between. Remember, thatch can only be produced by an actively growing plant. If you have thin spots or poor growing conditions, you don't have thatch production!

Thatch management is a huge issue in intensively managed golf and athletic turf, but isn't much of an issue in lawns.
Skip, your kool,,, but one of the most ding dong ( respectively ) things you said is "hey man, thatch isn't a problem in thin areas"... Duh,,, where it's thin,,, but it is for the living. To a degree. St. Aug thatch comprised of premature shedding foliage. Like repeated mower blade damage ( destroying foliage tissue ). If a rainy season'
begins and areas of thick depleted foliage do not decompose,,, look out for fungus. That same rainy condition. With a good sharp blade, cutting clean, will have less potential for fungus. Normal foliage shedding will continue. Add N and each scenario with only the blade difference will still increase opportunities for pest.

Thatch can be an issue. No one is saying it's "ALLLLL WWWAAYYYYSSSS BAD". Only with multiple factors developing. Shade and wet it's always BAD. But I do agree. Sometimes it helps retain moisture in dry conditions.

Love ya skip... Be nice.
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#22 ·
I'm not sure I would put much stock into anything Joel Simmons has to say. His poor understanding of soils rendered him speechless when Dr. Schlossberg from Penn State pointed out that his attachment to BCSR was BS.

But, on a larger note, I don't think anyone posting on this thread adequately understands thatch. In lawn care, thatch isn't *that* big of a deal! I've seen some lawns over the years that were too thatchy, but those were few and far between. Remember, thatch can only be produced by an actively growing plant. If you have thin spots or poor growing conditions, you don't have thatch production!

Thatch management is a huge issue in intensively managed golf and athletic turf, but isn't much of an issue in lawns.
Hey Skipster you make some good points for discussion on base saturation......So I added this link so more can at least follow along

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base-cation_saturation_ratio

I can say from my own personal experience, some years ago one of the companies I buy from put me in touch with Joel and I went to a seminar he was a part of with soilfirst.

Joel helped me to think outside of conventional thinking (Universities were still mostly Synthetic Minded @ that time) and I begin to use the Base Sat Methods way, with soil testing and prescriptive fertilization/soil treatments.

This only opened my eyes even more on how we care for plants the soil and the soil food web.

Do you agree with adding organic matter to poor soil and the C to N ratios in favor of soil/plant health?
 
#23 ·
I'm not sure I would put much stock into anything Joel Simmons has to say. His poor understanding of soils rendered him speechless when Dr. Schlossberg from Penn State pointed out that his attachment to BCSR was BS.

But, on a larger note, I don't think anyone posting on this thread adequately understands thatch. In lawn care, thatch isn't *that* big of a deal! I've seen some lawns over the years that were too thatchy, but those were few and far between. Remember, thatch can only be produced by an actively growing plant. If you have thin spots or poor growing conditions, you don't have thatch production!

Thatch management is a huge issue in intensively managed golf and athletic turf, but isn't much of an issue in lawns.
I agree that thatch is not much of a problem in our area. Unfortunately, many LCO's see detatching as an additional source of income and up sell it to unsuspecting clients. When thatch is a problem, dethatching does nothing to correct the cause.

There is no doubt that base-cation saturation ratio & the Albrecht Method are controversial and it's proponents will always butt heads with conventional proponents. But I prefer to learn from many different sources and make up my own mind. Joel's understanding of soils is different than conventional, not poor. There is much to learn from both, and others.
 
#25 ·
It may be a little known fact that dumping ferts of any kind on the surface of the ground may do little or nothing for the root zone 2" below the surface... Developing the correct maintenance plan for the actual grass variety and its climate to accomplish it,,, is what is needed...

Maybe kelp, humic acids, and chicken poo is all any lawn needs,,, but how do those nutrients get down into the soil where roots might actually grow if the soil 2" deep had fertility and water???

If a lawn is muddy,,, it can certainly used a bit of soil structure to help it drain...
The BCSR on wiki uses the term soil fertility,,, but doesn't address soil structure either...
I get the feeling that soil structure and root development is seen only through the eyes of:
dumping some product onto the turf and it will magically be created... this is pretty lame for an "Organic" thread... no offense, just an honest opinion... :)
 
#26 ·
I see St. Aug, growing along sidewalk cracks, developing roots ( long & health) right into the non soil cracks and as long as there is adequate moisture, it's growing and healthy in appearance. It can also do the same growing out into lake water visible under the surface. Good long roots, some green color and somewhat healthy.

In the end. These two scenarios allow St. Aug to have growth and color without soil. My only explanation is " this turfgrass is STRONG if left alone". The desire to exist brings life???
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