Soil Conditions Matter???

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by Smallaxe, Jan 31, 2013.

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  1. ToddH

    ToddH LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,192

    I find it funny how you are running into a circular argument. If we have a lawn in the wild where the builder stripped away the top soil leaving us with hard pan clay, a little construction sand to level the lawn and what ever top soil available on the roots of the sod, then we should just live with it?

    If the turf develops a disease that is controlled with biologicals we should not use it because ultimately the pro-botic will not thrive in the long run?

    We should not try to use aeration and compost to improve the structure of the top 3 inches of the top soil?

    What are you trying to say exactly?
  2. Smallaxe

    Smallaxe LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,082

    Finally!!! Plz do stop posting on my threads,,, IF you are NOT going to address the meaning of the thread...

    Now we have another irrelevant bickering about something other than the purpose of the thread... perhaps the bickering spewers could start a thread of their own,,, and others would be able to discuss SOIL STRUCTURE w/out bashers coming in and mocking the very idea of enhancing soil structure...

    Sorry to become sour but,,, It astounds me that y'all imagine you're clever.... :)
  3. ToddH

    ToddH LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,192

    I will ask to have my post deleted and will not ever post in one of your threads. Figuring out the meaning of your threads are difficult at best. :waving:
  4. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    What info skip? Perhaps you can provide some specific conclusions from the papers you claim to have read? Here let me provide an example from one of the cited papers.

    Microbial properties of composts that suppress Pythium damping-off and root rot of creeping bentgrass caused by Pythium graminicola.

    Quoting from the abstract.

    When composts were applied to creeping bentgrass in field
    experiments, a significant level of suppressiveness was evident with some composts when disease pressure was
    high (i.e., disease ratings high in uninoculated plots). A 1991 batch of turkey litter compost and the 1990 batch
    of Endicott biosolids were consistently suppressive to foliar symptoms of Pythium root rot on creeping
    bentgrass. This study indicates that suppression of Pythium diseases of creeping bentgrass in batches of
    brewery sludge and Endicott biosolids composts, and possibly in other suppressive composts examined in less
    detail in this study, is related directly to the microbial activities in the composts. On the other hand, the
    mechanisms of Pythium suppression in turkey litter and perhaps other poultry-based composts is not related
    directly to the compost microbial activity. Although turkey litter showed a lack of suppressiveness in laboratory
    bioassays and low microbial populations and activity, it resulted in a significant and consistent level of
    suppressiveness in field experiments.

    What does this demonstrate? You haven't read the cited literature as you have claimed.

    You asked for data, I provided a source. You didn't like what the data said ..... tough. You have stated and/or inferred on several threads there is no scientific research to show biological methods of disease suppression can work ..... you are wrong. Now you can whittle that down all you want, but in the end, you are still wrong.

    And what does this mean? Perhaps you can provide some citations to substantiate your inference?

    Again, perhaps you have some citations to this current work that invalidates all research in this field of study?

    FYI, I read the article I linked years ago. However, unlike you I am not going to claim or infer I have read all the cited literature from the article. That said, it also doesn't mean I haven't read any of it either. In fact, I have reviewed a wide variety of literature pertaining to biological disease suppression\control, but unlike you, I do not categorically dismiss the potential for its use because results can be variable, particularly with respect to compost. I also will come down hard on manufacturers who make wildly exaggerated and/or unsubstantiated claims about their products .... and have done so on numerous occasions on this forum.

    Many of the citations are. But heh, I am certain you have also fully reviewed this list of studies published in 2007, if not authored/co-authored the majority of them ..... right skip?

    Suppression of Soilborne Fungal Diseases with Organic Amendments

    or how about this article?

    Microbial studies of compost: bacterial identification, and their potential for turfgrass pathogen suppression

    or this article?

    Assessment of compost for suppression of Fusarium Patch (Microdochium nivale) and Typhula Blight (Typhula ishikariensis) snow molds of turfgrass

    or this article?

    Control of fungi diseases on turfgrass using Trichoderma harzianum

    or this article?

    Suppression of Soilborne Fungal Diseases with Organic Amendments

    You did, and do so on a regular basis, particularly when speaking through your foot.

    You get pounded for attempting to draw inappropriate parallels between sports turf and resi/comm turf, which once again demonstrates your inability to understand the management differences between the two.
    Last edited: Feb 10, 2013
  5. ToddH

    ToddH LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,192

    I dare to come back into the fray. Skip is correct, in an perfect environment there would be no need.

    Native plants, perfect water, perfect drainage, the periodic wild fire and such and all the microbes that will thrive do thrive in perfect harmony and no one gets sick.

    The reality is these products are tools that we can use to management "improved" landscapes on real estate in less than ideal conditions.

    I also find it funny that the papers Skip cites do not say they will not help.
  6. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

  7. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,335

    There is no such thing as a perfect environment in constructed landscapes, even in regionally appropriate and/or native constructed landscapes.

    Anything that can help make management of constructed landscapes more sustainable is worth consideration.
  8. ToddH

    ToddH LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,192

    Smart developers will stack and save the native soil and even perhaps amend it with compost then put it back into the landscape.

    Greedy developers will sell the top soil, which is often the first thing to go in residential developments.

    Even if the top soil is stacked and reused, it often becomes sterile in during the development period. I either buy nursery stock inoculated with mycorrhizae or add it myself.

    I also think that while the grass clipping will decompose on their own. I see less clipping build up on the lawns that I treat than on the ones that use off the shelf products.

    As a side note, I like to eat yogurt and Kimchee.
  9. phasthound

    phasthound LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,161

    C'mon guys, we were ordered to only post about soil structure here.
    Forming soil structure

    Most crops grow best in crumbly soil that roots can easily grow through and that allows in water and air. Soil organisms play an important role in the formation of a good soil structure.

    As spring turns to summer and the soil heats up, fungi grow long filaments called hyphae that surround soil particles and hold them together in soil aggregates. Some bacteria produce sticky substances that also help bind soil together.

    Many soil aggregates between the diameters of 1/1000 and 1/10 of an inch (the size of the period at the end of this sentence) are fecal pellets. Arthropods and earthworms consume soil, digest the bacteria, and excrete a clump of soil coated with secretions from the gut. As beetles and earthworms chew and bury plant residue and burrow through the soil, they aerate the soil and create nutrient-lined channels for roots and water to move through.

    We can influence this process in the many ways that have been spoken of here ad nauseum. There is no magic bean. I simply cannot understand why this turns into a fire fight every time.

    I will now be struck by lightning.
  10. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,086

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