Soil Health

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by phasthound, May 27, 2012.

  1. Smallaxe

    Smallaxe LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,082

    The harsh conditions were noted , 'Why??'

    Soil Structure microbes, thrive in harsh conditions also? Then we should have good soil aggregate in every soil, in spite of 'Harsh Conditions'...

    Still would like to know Good Conditions and the Comfortable Lifestyle that we might provide to optimize the productivity of the Beneficial microbes...

    Do Fungal Diseases just occur w/out reason? Do soil aggregates form w/out us knowing?

    Something to think about... :)
  2. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,086

    The info you're referring to is only true for N-fixing legumes, which includes clovers and beans, like soybeans -- NOT grasses. So, N use will inhibit N-fixation in soybeans, which is why soybean fertility is different than turfgrass fertility.

    You're jumping at a lot of non-lawn issues to prove the way you're doing your lawn apps. You linked how mycorrhizae can help in nursery crop production and in tree/shrub establishment on harsh sites and you've linked about how rhizobia interact with legumes, but you've linked nothing about how these impact lawns. Lawns surely don't benefit from N-fixing rhizobia, unless you are growing legumes in your lawns (which most people call weeds).

    You guys are falling hook, line, and sinker for what the salesmen are telling you. You're totally ignoring the ecological differences between leguminous and non-leguminous cropping systems, as well as annual vs perennial cropping systems.
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  3. Duekster

    Duekster LawnSite Fanatic
    from DFW, TX
    Messages: 7,961

    Just admit it, you are too cheap to inoculate :)

    I thought I posted some positive information regarding inoculating.

    The more I read about it, the most positive I am about the program.
  4. Duekster

    Duekster LawnSite Fanatic
    from DFW, TX
    Messages: 7,961

    You first said there was no proof Mycrorizia worked in the field. I gave proof right? People have trees in their lawn right? There is a trial showing Mycorrizia do work in field trials. Lets get that one point straight first.

    Then I will move forward with the turf aspects.
  5. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,086

    You haven't shown me that it works in trees maintained as part of a landscape. Maybe this is a fault of academia. However, I have seen hundreds of studies that show that mycorrhizae innoculation is ineffective in landscape situations. But, you show me a few claims. If you can find the peer-reviewed papers, I will be more than happy to take a look.

    However, I don't see any justification in throwing money at something that isn't proven to work.
  6. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,086

    BTW, perhaps you didn't see the references in Zuberer's paper -- work from the University of Rhode Island that showed that innoculation of mycorrhizae was ineffective at changing natural populations of mycorrhizae and that ALL soils (even straight sand) had millions of mycorrhizae hyphae per gram of soil.

    So far, the evidence shows that adding mycorrhizae to the soil doesn't influence what's already there.
  7. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,086

    From you UMN link:

    Generally, inoculated organisms will not last long if the environment is not suitable. If the environment is suitable, the organisms are probably there anyway. Good organic matter content along with good moisture and aeration are all that most beneficial microbes will need.


    So, your own link says that inoculation is probably not necessary, since inoculated organisms don't last long in the right enviro, and are already present if the enviro is right.

    Some people will believe anything a salesman tells them. WC Fields said there is one born every minute. You certainly haven't disproven him.
  8. Duekster

    Duekster LawnSite Fanatic
    from DFW, TX
    Messages: 7,961

    I think you are missing the point 100%. There is no need to get big internet britches either.

    I would not innoculate fertile soil. In your first example, a sports field built using 80% sand and 20% organic matter. Great!

    The conditions I am talking about ( go back and re-read my posted comments) is where the track home builders strip off the top soil, build houses and throw down soil with 1/2 of roots.

    I show you a trial where Texas A&M restoring a strip mine. You can not acknowledge there is an application but start tossing insults.

    I am sure we do not even need to plant trees or grass. They would grow anyway. :laugh:
  9. Skipster

    Skipster LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,086

    I think the point you're missing is that there is no evidence to suggest that the subsoil in new construction sites is devoid of soil microbial activity. The research plainly demonstrates this!

    You can apply whatever snake oils you like, but don't ruin the industry by telling customers that you can impact soil microbial populations or activity with a spray application. The science tells us that it can't happen.

    Some people really will believe anything :hammerhead:
  10. Duekster

    Duekster LawnSite Fanatic
    from DFW, TX
    Messages: 7,961

    One, I do not think I said it was the end all. I also think I said I injected in the top 8 to 12 inches or inoculated the tree when planting.

    I do again believe that the impact is proven in the greenhouse. Many growers are now including it in their programs because it produces better plants. I have had a great deal of success down here.

    I see trees kicking off in the wild and in street median in last years drought. I planted 3 trees the summer prior and 3 trees the year of the drought. I injected around them one time last year and again this spring.

    They are thriving and living off nothing more than turf irrigation. While I see trees with gator bags on them struggling.

    As far as turf management goes, I would always recommend aeration top dressing to the person wanting a top notch lawn. I will also bacteria on it too, yes it has seaweed, humates, trace minerals, and a small amount of N and K and a relatively healthy dose of iron.

    I kick up the N to about 1/2 Pound and hit it with Primo max.

    I have tried other forms of IRON and trace mineral packets and such and they also work but not quite as well.

    How about you try your own trials and see.

    I suppose you never heard of the Dust Bowl or the causes of the famine outbreak in Africa.

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