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Southern guys, Bermuda discussion thread

70K views 228 replies 26 participants last post by  avguy 
#1 ·
Seems like we are a minority on this forum so I thought I would start a discussion specific to Bermuda grass varieties.

Personally, All of my customer's are hybrid Bermuda (419). My personal lawn is also the same.

What are your best practices? App timings? what products do you use depending on the time of year? Preferred mowing heights for customers? What things have you done that you regret or products that have failed? Do you apply preventative pesticides for insects or only on an as needed basis? When do you prefer to Aerate?

I started reeling my personal lawn this year and I'm really impressed with the turf density so far and we're not even at the peak of Bermuda due to the cooler temps we've had this spring. I can't wait to see how it looks in another month when we're getting into peak growth.

Obviously reeling is the best way to mow Bermuda but then there's reality that many customers aren't willing to pay for it since it's a common turf around here and installed in houses of many price ranges so we have to mow it a little less frequent and a little higher than preferred. I personally start the season at 1.5" on weekly customers and raise it up to 2" towards the heat of the summer.

Let's get something going here to create a reference point for others.
 
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#2 ·
How low are you mowing on your own lawn? Low mowing heights serve as a natural growth suppressant. I also take a look at N source and frequency of application. Keeping bermuda at a low height of cut is a bit more expensive than rough cutting it, but the appearance is there.
 
#3 ·
I have a hard time getting my customers to mow every week, and then they wonder why the lawn looks like poo. Its gonna be a long summer. On my own lawn, its every 3 to 5 days or it just doesn't look as good. But as i probably won't have time to mow my own that frequently i will go atleast every week. People are either to cheap or lazy to have the lawn mowed each week it seems. Plenty of customers want the golf course look without the effort or cost of proper maintenance. I'd like to someday reel mow my own bermuda as well, i am gonna have to get my lawn leveled first because its so bumpy. For now, i mow it on the high side with my honda 21" and it looks alright. I get it just low enough to where i don't scalp a bunch of areas. can't wait for this warm weather, bermudas really looking bad here now. I see a few looking good here and there though.. I have seen alot of people burning the bermuda this year in my area, and that has seemed to turn out well for those folks.
 
#4 · (Edited)
How low are you mowing on your own lawn? Low mowing heights serve as a natural growth suppressant. I also take a look at N source and frequency of application. Keeping bermuda at a low height of cut is a bit more expensive than rough cutting it, but the appearance is there.
Right now I'm at about 1/2" (2nd notch from the bottom on my tru-cut) mowing twice a week. This is my first year reeling it. In early April, I took it down as low as my 21" Snapper rotary would go and bagged it. Then Reeled it as low as the tru-cut would go. Then raked it with a leaf rake to lift up the stems (due to higher cutting heights last year) then mowed again with the rotary to bag the remaining stems. My lawn is still kinda bumpy, I plan on top dressing with river sand in a few weeks. I've slowly top dressed low spots over the years since I've been here (since '07) but it needs a total top dress to really get it "pool table flat".

On my personal lawn I'm experimenting with doing N apps every 30 days as opposed to the every 6 week apps I do on customer lawns to see how it does. We're still kinda cool here and haven't broken into the 80's much other than a few days and night time temps still aren't ideal yet for the Bermuda to do its best. We're suppose to see night time temps in the upper 60's early next week so that'll help. Tonight was kinda warm and I could feel more humidity in the air.

I agree on the appearance piece, I love the look so far and we're not even near peak growing season yet. I've already gotten a few "wow it looks like a golf course fairway" from neighbors.

I have a hard time getting my customers to mow every week, and then they wonder why the lawn looks like poo. Its gonna be a long summer. On my own lawn, its every 3 to 5 days or it just doesn't look as good. But as i probably won't have time to mow my own that frequently i will go atleast every week. People are either to cheap or lazy to have the lawn mowed each week it seems. Plenty of customers want the golf course look without the effort or cost of proper maintenance. I'd like to someday reel mow my own bermuda as well, i am gonna have to get my lawn leveled first because its so bumpy. For now, i mow it on the high side with my honda 21" and it looks alright. I get it just low enough to where i don't scalp a bunch of areas. can't wait for this warm weather, bermudas really looking bad here now. I see a few looking good here and there though.. I have seen alot of people burning the bermuda this year in my area, and that has seemed to turn out well for those folks.
Do you provide any written brochures/pamphlets for your customers that don't have you mow? I put together a "Bermuda fact sheet" for my customers that covers the basics of mowing, irrigation, Bermuda facts, and links to web resources (uga's site and Walter reeves' site). Whether or not they actually read it, lol who knows but at least they have something in writing.

I also do the mowing on 90% of my customers so I can keep that piece done properly. I won't accept a customer who wants bi-weekly mowing.
 
#5 ·
Got my roller from Reelworks the other day and put it on the tru cut. I like it! It helps when cutting along the edge of my beds so I don't drop a wheel in the bed and scalp it. It also adds some weight to the front end so it doesn't pop a wheelie as badly when I engage the drive.

Plant Mower Grass Outdoor power equipment Lawn
 
#6 ·
For your lawn, it might be worth it to consider a golf course style liquid program. Low rates of soluble fertilizers and Primo applied every 30 days. I do break out the Primo on any lawn that grows too much between mowings. BTW, the convention in Hawaii is for lawns to be mowed every 2 weeks. Some lawns, due to generous watering, better than normal soil and/or full sun all day cannot stay within those boundaries. 0.25 oz Primo added to the liquid fertilizer fixes that. A lawn hit with 1+ lb of N from slow release will always overgrow. Hence my preference for low rates of nitrate and ammonium nitrogen applied at 30 day intervals. I remember one zoysia lawn a "landsaper" threw 24-2-10 on. That lawn grew 6" per week every week for the next 2 months. What you apply as fertilizer and how much has a large part in determining whether the lawn will need daily or every other day mowing. The last time I ever sprayed 0.5 lb of N from urea, that lawn overgrew between mowings. Other people have done the same thing applying 1 lb of N from 21-0-0.
 
#7 ·
Hit post too soon. In hot weather, when it is not necessary to push growth, bermuda in a home lawn might not need more than 1/4 lb of N every 30 days. Want more color? Use micronutrients.
 
#8 ·
For your lawn, it might be worth it to consider a golf course style liquid program. Low rates of soluble fertilizers and Primo applied every 30 days. I do break out the Primo on any lawn that grows too much between mowings. BTW, the convention in Hawaii is for lawns to be mowed every 2 weeks. Some lawns, due to generous watering, better than normal soil and/or full sun all day cannot stay within those boundaries. 0.25 oz Primo added to the liquid fertilizer fixes that. A lawn hit with 1+ lb of N from slow release will always overgrow. Hence my preference for low rates of nitrate and ammonium nitrogen applied at 30 day intervals. I remember one zoysia lawn a "landsaper" threw 24-2-10 on. That lawn grew 6" per week every week for the next 2 months. What you apply as fertilizer and how much has a large part in determining whether the lawn will need daily or every other day mowing. The last time I ever sprayed 0.5 lb of N from urea, that lawn overgrew between mowings. Other people have done the same thing applying 1 lb of N from 21-0-0.
I have thought about going liquid on mine with frequent lower rate apps. I'm still hesitant on customer lawns because none of them have irrigation systems and they pretty much rely on rainfall for irrigation needs. I don't have an in ground system on my lawn but I have a "Jerry rigged" system of hoses and gear drive heads I setup on a programmable timer to irrigate when needed.
 
#9 ·
1/4 lb of N applied in 2-5 gallons of mix is not enough to fry a non irrigated lawn. Those high rate mixes I posted are only for lawns that I can be spraying ahead of each zone as it comes on. Being there every 30 days also enables you to keep an eye on things. I still cannot get how a lawn can be maintained weed, disease, and insect free when it is only looked at once every 60-90 days. Me walking a lawn to put down the liquid mix is when I am also inspecting it for trouble.
 
#10 ·
1/4 lb of N applied in 2-5 gallons of mix is not enough to fry a non irrigated lawn. Those high rate mixes I posted are only for lawns that I can be spraying ahead of each zone as it comes on. Being there every 30 days also enables you to keep an eye on things. I still cannot get how a lawn can be maintained weed, disease, and insect free when it is only looked at once every 60-90 days. Me walking a lawn to put down the liquid mix is when I am also inspecting it for trouble.
I agree with you. Fortunately, since I mow 90% of my turf care customers, I'm on the lawn once a week and can spot potential problems. Part of the whole 60 day model is just customer perception of how things have always been done around here.
 
#12 ·
For your lawn, it might be worth it to consider a golf course style liquid program. Low rates of soluble fertilizers and Primo applied every 30 days. I do break out the Primo on any lawn that grows too much between mowings. BTW, the convention in Hawaii is for lawns to be mowed every 2 weeks. Some lawns, due to generous watering, better than normal soil and/or full sun all day cannot stay within those boundaries. 0.25 oz Primo added to the liquid fertilizer fixes that. A lawn hit with 1+ lb of N from slow release will always overgrow. Hence my preference for low rates of nitrate and ammonium nitrogen applied at 30 day intervals. I remember one zoysia lawn a "landsaper" threw 24-2-10 on. That lawn grew 6" per week every week for the next 2 months. What you apply as fertilizer and how much has a large part in determining whether the lawn will need daily or every other day mowing. The last time I ever sprayed 0.5 lb of N from urea, that lawn overgrew between mowings. Other people have done the same thing applying 1 lb of N from 21-0-0.
Golf course style liquid program? I'm not sure what that means. Just about every golf course superintendent you talk to will have a different program. Liquid fertilizers are used on putting greens, but that's only part of the program -- most supts will use granular ferts at some point in the season and liquid at other times. Liquid apps are usually done at 0.1#N/M at 7 day intervals -- and only on greens. Tees may get some liquid, but are usually granular and fairways are usually granular apps as well.

You can get the same results from liquid or dry applications -- they both deliver nutrients to your plants. When you would use one over another all depends on what fits best for your operation and for your customer.
 
#14 ·
Let's discuss simazine since it seems to be popular around here for winter time dormant applications for its pre and post capabilities. Since simazine has a lot of restrictions what roadblocks are you running into? For properties that fall into those restrictions, what are you applying instead? When are you applying it? Do you tank mix anything with it?
 
#16 ·
when i worked for orkin lawn care in the 95 we did 12 apps per year, the price for any lawn was 30 bucks though. Alot of those lawns looked good, problem was none of us knew what we were doing, because we were all new except a few members of management. The head tech that trained me had been there 3 weeks and used to sell furniture. (this explains alot i'm sure..lol) Anyway.. Even trugreen wouldn't touch monthly accounts when they bought us out. I was not at orkin long enough to see how effective the service was for a year. I wonder sometimes if it'd be worth trying to have an option for a level of service for monthly lawn care. Orkin had monthly and cycle programs where the treatments were 6 to 8 weeks apart. It was not hard to sell people on a monthly program back then. I don't even know what the 12 month lawn care program consisted of because i think i was there 3 or 4 months before trugreen came in. but i do know we had alot and it was a hassle to get them all done without skipping any.. the last day of the month we couldn't go home until the monthly accounts were done.

I agree with you. Fortunately, since I mow 90% of my turf care customers, I'm on the lawn once a week and can spot potential problems. Part of the whole 60 day model is just customer perception of how things have always been done around here.
 
#17 ·
I do provide a leaflet with each round with all that info. some of my customers are to busy to mow regularly. theres always gonna be those people though.

If i only accepted weekly mowing accounts i would have 0 customers. I'm hoping some switch to weekly once things get growing good. bi-weekly is fine for right now.. but it won't be long.

hell of a storm here now in dallas, ga. and its gonna be hot next week.:drinkup:

Do you provide any written brochures/pamphlets for your customers that don't have you mow? I put together a "Bermuda fact sheet" for my customers that covers the basics of mowing, irrigation, Bermuda facts, and links to web resources (uga's site and Walter reeves' site). Whether or not they actually read it, lol who knows but at least they have something in writing.

I also do the mowing on 90% of my customers so I can keep that piece done properly. I won't accept a customer who wants bi-weekly mowing.
 
#18 ·
Here's the problem. Bermuda is all about COLOR. Hybrid Bermuda aka 419,Tifway requires 4-6 lbs of N through the growing season to maintain color. For those of you who don't deal with this grass, color is the key. You can have a perfectly maintained landscape but if the bermuda is off color you will have an unhappy customer. Iron treatments are not in the budget, nothing is. It's nearly impossible to maintain the average yard at the best height for this grass (1.5" or less). Most 419 yards in this area are maintained around 2.5"-3". Educating the customer is not a universal answer. If you can't make their yard look great mowing once a week, they will find someone who will. Thats life in the south.

90% of the maintenance in the south is volume mowing of 419. If your in the 10% of high end maintenance good for you, the rest of us have to get the job done as fast and efficiently as possible without scalping or browing. Therefore the mowing heights go up.

Budgets are everything. We recently bid a 73,000 sq ft bermuda subdivision entrance. Full maintenance plus chemicals. Low bidder got the job @ $350/month. That's what we deal with.

A 24-0-8 50% 2FE @ $17/bag is a basic bermuda fert that is affordable for the volumes we do. Applied every 4-6 weeks starting in May.

Soil Testing is a great idea. Who's going to pay for it?? Yes, it's relatively cheap, but you are still eating $100's. Would it cut down on the amount of fert we use, maybe. But remember, it's COLOR that matters with 419.

Bermuda used to be a very easy grass to make look great. With the downward spiral in pricing, increased labor,fuel,etc, except in a few cases, we really don't have the time or budget to make it look it's best anymore.
 
#19 ·
Here's the problem. Bermuda is all about COLOR. Hybrid Bermuda aka 419,Tifway requires 4-6 lbs of N through the growing season to maintain color. For those of you who don't deal with this grass, color is the key. You can have a perfectly maintained landscape but if the bermuda is off color you will have an unhappy customer. Iron treatments are not in the budget, nothing is. It's nearly impossible to maintain the average yard at the best height for this grass (1.5" or less). Most 419 yards in this area are maintained around 2.5"-3". Educating the customer is not a universal answer. If you can't make their yard look great mowing once a week, they will find someone who will. Thats life in the south.

90% of the maintenance in the south is volume mowing of 419. If your in the 10% of high end maintenance good for you, the rest of us have to get the job done as fast and efficiently as possible without scalping or browing. Therefore the mowing heights go up.

Budgets are everything. We recently bid a 73,000 sq ft bermuda subdivision entrance. Full maintenance plus chemicals. Low bidder got the job @ $350/month. That's what we deal with.

A 24-0-8 50% 2FE @ $17/bag is a basic bermuda fert that is affordable for the volumes we do. Applied every 4-6 weeks starting in May.

Soil Testing is a great idea. Who's going to pay for it?? Yes, it's relatively cheap, but you are still eating $100's. Would it cut down on the amount of fert we use, maybe. But remember, it's COLOR that matters with 419.

Bermuda used to be a very easy grass to make look great. With the downward spiral in pricing, increased labor,fuel,etc, except in a few cases, we really don't have the time or budget to make it look it's best anymore.
Pretty much sums it up. In addition, since we are in the transition zone, Bermuda is the lesser of two evils compared to fescue. It's all about compromise.

Anyone have any luck with tifgrand? I just put down about 1,000 sq ft of it in my buddy's backyard. It's suppose to transition out of dormancy a little better and maintain density in shadier conditions.
 
#21 ·
I do provide a leaflet with each round with all that info. some of my customers are to busy to mow regularly. theres always gonna be those people though.

If i only accepted weekly mowing accounts i would have 0 customers. I'm hoping some switch to weekly once things get growing good. bi-weekly is fine for right now.. but it won't be long.

hell of a storm here now in dallas, ga. and its gonna be hot next week.:drinkup:
Oh ok cool. Yeah it's storming pretty good here in Canton. The thunder is such a deep long rumble, it's rattling everything in my house.
 
#22 ·
Pretty much sums it up. In addition, since we are in the transition zone, Bermuda is the lesser of two evils compared to fescue. It's all about compromise.

Anyone have any luck with tifgrand? I just put down about 1,000 sq ft of it in my buddy's backyard. It's suppose to transition out of dormancy a little better and maintain density in shadier conditions.
Tifgrand is a lot greener and denser under less than ideal mowing conditions. Even common looks better under low fertility conditions. I consider Tifway an inferior grass. Color is terrible. Tendency is for it to be fine leaved, but leggy. Cannot take any shading. Needs too much nitrogen and iron to stay green. Also has to be reel mowed EOD at those high fertility rates. I think the best place for it is on sports fields with the maintenance budget or golf fairways. Not home or commercial landscapes.
 
#23 ·
You might also consider Celebration. It too, stays greener on lower rates of N and does not stretch that much. For lawns that cannot be mowed EOD, Tifgreen works well in Hawaii. Tifway 419 is fast growing and leggy. Tifgreen is rather slow growing. A lot of homeowners had Tifdwarf as their home lawn. That changed when the Take All plague hit in the 1990's. Most home lawns are now either El Toro or Emerald zoysia, with some seashore paspalum. Seashore paspalum is another grass that does not belong outside of a golf course or high budget sports field.
 
#24 ·
You might also consider Celebration. It too, stays greener on lower rates of N and does not stretch that much. For lawns that cannot be mowed EOD, Tifgreen works well in Hawaii. Tifway 419 is fast growing and leggy. Tifgreen is rather slow growing. A lot of homeowners had Tifdwarf as their home lawn. That changed when the Take All plague hit in the 1990's. Most home lawns are now either El Toro or Emerald zoysia, with some seashore paspalum. Seashore paspalum is another grass that does not belong outside of a golf course or high budget sports field.
It's not what we want to put down, it's what is there and what the builders install. $1M+ homes are sodded with 419. At $85/pallet it is the grass of choice in the Atlanta metro area, even newly sodded, non irrigated turf will survive. Very few people will pay for an upgrade. Sad but true.
 
#25 ·
Pretty much sums it up. In addition, since we are in the transition zone, Bermuda is the lesser of two evils compared to fescue. It's all about compromise.

Anyone have any luck with tifgrand? I just put down about 1,000 sq ft of it in my buddy's backyard. It's suppose to transition out of dormancy a little better and maintain density in shadier conditions.
Tif Grand is not a cure all. If you research it, it still needs 6 hours of direct sunlight to perform well. Yep, thats a 25% decrease in the amount of sun needed. But 6 hours is still 6 hours.
 
#26 ·
Tif Grand is not a cure all. If you research it, it still needs 6 hours of direct sunlight to perform well. Yep, thats a 25% decrease in the amount of sun needed. But 6 hours is still 6 hours.
Yeah, that's what I read about it. I'm curious to see if it lives up to those claims for anyone who has experience with it. We'll see how it holds up in his backyard.
 
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