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Sumagreen revisited

28K views 69 replies 11 participants last post by  Lawn132012 
#1 ·
OK folks the season is almost done.
Some of you maybe already!
Anyway, I have been following some of the sumagreen threads all year.
I'm thinking maybe I'll give it a shot next year.
But 1st, for those who used it, tell us how it worked out.
What were you pleased with? What were the strengths and advantages?
What were some weaknesses.
Will you use it again next year?

Thanks for your input
 
#3 ·
If I was going to migrate from the synthetic granules, that are qick, easy and predictable, available in any box store or specialty agriculture outlet, I think I would go to soybean meal following a Spring dose of cornmeal in the Spring...

What is it about the manufactured "organic" fertilizers that has attracted you??? :)
 
#4 ·
If I was going to migrate from the synthetic granules, that are qick, easy and predictable, available in any box store or specialty agriculture outlet, I think I would go to soybean meal following a Spring dose of cornmeal in the Spring...

What is it about the manufactured "organic" fertilizers that has attracted you??? :)
Cost was good.

Easy to use.

Easy on the enviornment.

Response with standard rates.

Less fertilizer recordkeeping.
 
#5 ·
I saw no difference in green response in any of my test areas; zip, zero, nada. I made 2 purchases based upon the dozens and dozens of posts from "the owner or friend of the owner-Lawn132012" (my opinion). So based upon my use and experience, it was a complete and total waste of valuable time and money.

Does it have an affect on the root depth and thickness, worm and "bug" population, help lawns during the summer stresses; I don't know. I made my purchases based upon the "WOW" green up response. There was none, so I feel I bought snake oil.
 
#6 ·
N being available in one form or another but it is still only N... sometimes the plant has all the N it can handle,,, no more...
Root development and health are more cultural practice than fert... :)
 
#9 ·
Looking forward to the new rates for better lawn response, thanks Phasthound.

I really want to believe in this product, I would love to have this or something similar as an add on for a more expensive premium program-that shows premium results. I have customers that want to pay more to have the ultimate lawn. Someone please show me some "independent" study that shows this product works as some have claimed. If it takes an entire season or 4 apps, whatever. Like I said, I want to believe, many posters said they got BANGIN, WOW, etc. results in a week. Show me the light.
 
#10 ·
N being available in one form or another but it is still only N... sometimes the plant has all the N it can handle,,, no more...
Root development and health are more cultural practice than fert... :)
SumaGreen is not considered a fertilizer. Some of the microbes are N fixing bacteria. Many of the others promote root development. The idea is to augment the natural process of mineralization. http://nmsp.cals.cornell.edu/publications/factsheets/factsheet2.pdf
 
#11 ·
SumaGreen is not considered a fertilizer. Some of the microbes are N fixing bacteria. Many of the others promote root development. The idea is to augment the natural process of mineralization. http://nmsp.cals.cornell.edu/publications/factsheets/factsheet2.pdf
So are we talking about consuming the OM in the soils w/out replacement??? This article focussed on the reality of having the fertilizer applied at the correct time and never once suggestted adding microbes to make things happen...

Not sure how this article supports the buying and applying of microbes... :)
 
#12 ·
So are we talking about consuming the OM in the soils w/out replacement??? This article focussed on the reality of having the fertilizer applied at the correct time and never once suggestted adding microbes to make things happen...

Not sure how this article supports the buying and applying of microbes... :)
One thing for sure with this product Smallaxe, when there is Carbon at the dinner table (in the soil) these N fixing microbes work FAST in warm soils when Mineralization is working and a high rate of available N from them, gives a response.

At the 2012 standard rate applied in summertime, I saw too much release of N, and caused me disease issues.

In Spring the Product may be the right fit. I wonder if there was something to apply with the June application to turn off/ slow the rate of N release by the microbes???

Having used urease inhibitors with Urea applications to slow things down worked for Chemical Nitrogen.

What could we add to a June Application of Sumagreen to slow release of Microbe produced N when soil temps get warmer, which is a Disease playground........
 
#13 ·
Smallaxe "So are we talking about consuming the OM in the soils w/out replacement??? This article focussed on the reality of having the fertilizer applied at the correct time and never once suggestted adding microbes to make things happen...

Not sure how this article supports the buying and applying of microbes... "


Heritage "One thing for sure with this product Smallaxe, when there is Carbon at the dinner table (in the soil) these N fixing microbes work FAST in warm soils when Mineralization is working and a high rate of available N from them, gives a response.

At the 2012 standard rate applied in summertime, I saw too much release of N, and caused me disease issues.

In Spring the Product may be the right fit. I wonder if there was something to apply with the June application to turn off/ slow the rate of N release by the microbes???

Having used urease inhibitors with Urea applications to slow things down worked for Chemical Nitrogen.

What could we add to a June Application of Sumagreen to slow release of Microbe produced N when soil temps get warmer, which is a Disease playground........"


Good observations from both of you.

We specialize in putting together lawn care programs which effectively reduce NPK inputs while still meeting the quality demands of our clients. We do this for economic, agronomic, and environmental reasons.
Most conventional programs are aimed at providing green grass without addressing the importance of maintaining a healthy population of soil microbes. This approach can lead to weakened root systems which increase nutrient runoff, irrigation requirements and pesticide usage.

Also the sole reliance on conventional methods does little to improve soil health. The addition of organic matter and microbial stimulants can provide much more to the plant than a few necessary elements which will keep a lawn green. Adding them to a program has been shown to increase root mass, reduce irrigation needs, improve nutrient uptake and strengthen the natural immune systems of plants.

Smallaxe, I don't believe I have ever posted anything stating that adding OM should not be part of any type of lawn care program, quite the opposite. I included the Cornell Publication merely to point out the importance of microbial activity because this subject is rarely covered in lawn care education. IMO, it is critical to understand how this plays a role in providing green grass with less impact our health and the environment. Oh, and our pocket books as the cost of fertilizer keeps rising and billions of $'s in taxes are spent on cleaning up our water.

Heritage, SumaGreen may not be the best choice for a June application. At that time of year, we recommend a granular product which is high in very slow release organic matter and is impregnated with a natural growth regulator and inhibits diseases.
 
#14 ·
So Barry, are you saying that Sumagreen has material in it that adds OM to the soil??? Compost physically adds OM to the soil, because it is made up of OM...

For dog spots, caused by extreme application of liquid urea(urine),,, one possible way of 'tieing up that N quickly', is to add sugar or molasses, thus changing the carbon to N ratio...

So when addressing Heritage's concern about the excessive release of N, during the growing season by over active microbials; would a food like soybean meal work better becuz it is harder to digest???

Heritage,,, have you checked the amount of water going to these lawns??? microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow... :)
 
#15 ·
So Barry, are you saying that Sumagreen has material in it that adds OM to the soil??? Compost physically adds OM to the soil, because it is made up of OM...

For dog spots, caused by extreme application of liquid urea(urine),,, one possible way of 'tieing up that N quickly', is to add sugar or molasses, thus changing the carbon to N ratio...

So when addressing Heritage's concern about the excessive release of N, during the growing season by over active microbials; would a food like soybean meal work better becuz it is harder to digest???

Heritage,,, have you checked the amount of water going to these lawns??? microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow... :)
The microbiology in SumaGreen and other similar products can increase root mass which is organic matter. The increase in root mass can help improve soil structure. We recommend several products as tools to increase OM and improve soil health. Compost, organic and organic-based fertilizers, meals and soil inoculates are all good choices if used properly and are cost effective.

In regards to "microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow..." It would be more accurate to say that excessive water is a factor in causing turf diseases because it favors pathogenic microbes over beneficial microbes.
 
#16 ·
So Barry, are you saying that Sumagreen has material in it that adds OM to the soil??? Compost physically adds OM to the soil, because it is made up of OM...

For dog spots, caused by extreme application of liquid urea(urine),,, one possible way of 'tieing up that N quickly', is to add sugar or molasses, thus changing the carbon to N ratio...

So when addressing Heritage's concern about the excessive release of N, during the growing season by over active microbials; would a food like soybean meal work better becuz it is harder to digest???

Heritage,,, have you checked the amount of water going to these lawns??? microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow... :)
Yep smallaxe, It was my own lawn, good soil drainage and less than 1.5" input per week on PR that was never in a summer dormant state.

But I live in a river valley, and humidity and air movement are issues and leaf wetness longer than 10 hours is common. Again soil drainage is very good here.
 
#17 ·
Smallaxe "So are we talking about consuming the OM in the soils w/out replacement??? This article focussed on the reality of having the fertilizer applied at the correct time and never once suggestted adding microbes to make things happen...

Not sure how this article supports the buying and applying of microbes... "


Heritage "One thing for sure with this product Smallaxe, when there is Carbon at the dinner table (in the soil) these N fixing microbes work FAST in warm soils when Mineralization is working and a high rate of available N from them, gives a response.

At the 2012 standard rate applied in summertime, I saw too much release of N, and caused me disease issues.

In Spring the Product may be the right fit. I wonder if there was something to apply with the June application to turn off/ slow the rate of N release by the microbes???

Having used urease inhibitors with Urea applications to slow things down worked for Chemical Nitrogen.

What could we add to a June Application of Sumagreen to slow release of Microbe produced N when soil temps get warmer, which is a Disease playground........"


Good observations from both of you.

We specialize in putting together lawn care programs which effectively reduce NPK inputs while still meeting the quality demands of our clients. We do this for economic, agronomic, and environmental reasons.
Most conventional programs are aimed at providing green grass without addressing the importance of maintaining a healthy population of soil microbes. This approach can lead to weakened root systems which increase nutrient runoff, irrigation requirements and pesticide usage.

Also the sole reliance on conventional methods does little to improve soil health. The addition of organic matter and microbial stimulants can provide much more to the plant than a few necessary elements which will keep a lawn green. Adding them to a program has been shown to increase root mass, reduce irrigation needs, improve nutrient uptake and strengthen the natural immune systems of plants.

Smallaxe, I don't believe I have ever posted anything stating that adding OM should not be part of any type of lawn care program, quite the opposite. I included the Cornell Publication merely to point out the importance of microbial activity because this subject is rarely covered in lawn care education. IMO, it is critical to understand how this plays a role in providing green grass with less impact our health and the environment. Oh, and our pocket books as the cost of fertilizer keeps rising and billions of $'s in taxes are spent on cleaning up our water.

Heritage, SumaGreen may not be the best choice for a June application. At that time of year, we recommend a granular product which is high in very slow release organic matter and is impregnated with a natural growth regulator and inhibits diseases.
Thanks Barry,

Your anwser can help those using Granular. We are all liquid prescription applications, and Sumagreen is of course a Liquid product.

I am happy with the Idea of products like Sumagreen, but I need to have more information on the mode of action and how we can turn on/off and or suppress the Microbials depending on how the seasons forecast will look with heat and rainfall. The carbon is already there in "good soil" and carbon also in the sumagreen to feed the N fixing component(s).

How do we turn the Sumagreen Microbials OFF, without having a negative impact on the soil food web, when soil temps above 65F?
 
#18 ·
Thanks Barry,

Your anwser can help those using Granular. We are all liquid prescription applications, and Sumagreen is of course a Liquid product.

I am happy with the Idea of products like Sumagreen, but I need to have more information on the mode of action and how we can turn on/off and or suppress the Microbials depending on how the seasons forecast will look with heat and rainfall. The carbon is already there in "good soil" and carbon also in the sumagreen to feed the N fixing component(s).

How do we turn the Sumagreen Microbials OFF, without having a negative impact on the soil food web, when soil temps above 65F?
Use lower rates as soil temps rise. :)
 
#19 ·
Barry,

Is there someone from Sumagreen that can answer my question?

Your short reply does not address the fact that once we have applied the Sumagreen microbes, they will continue to thrive and multiply as Carbon (their food source) is present in the warming soil conditions as spring goes into summer.......

Let's stick to the Sumagreen specifically, so we can find a way to fit it into our program(s), without the Disease potential issues that follow too much of the microbes Nitrogen production at the worst time.....Late Spring thru Summer.
 
#21 ·
once we have applied the Sumagreen microbes, they will continue to thrive and multiply as Carbon (their food source) is present in the warming soil conditions as spring goes into summer....

In regards to "microbials really take off in excessive water environments and as you've noted,,, disease problems follow..." It would be more accurate to say that excessive water is a factor in causing turf diseases because it favors pathogenic microbes over beneficial microbes.

One thing for sure with this product Smallaxe, when there is Carbon at the dinner table (in the soil) these N fixing microbes work FAST in warm soils when Mineralization is working and a high rate of available N from them, gives a response.

At the 2012 standard rate applied in summertime, I saw too much release of N, and caused me disease issues.

In Spring the Product may be the right fit. I wonder if there was something to apply with the June application to turn off/ slow the rate of N release by the microbes???

Having used urease inhibitors with Urea applications to slow things down worked for Chemical Nitrogen.

What could we add to a June Application of Sumagreen to slow release of Microbe produced N when soil temps get warmer, which is a Disease playground........
Would this be the same for applying compost tea when temperatures warm. I had the most disease ever in zoysia turf in 2012 but I contributed it to one of the worst droughts we ever experienced,relentless night and day temperatures and improper watering. Now I must consider if my organic treatments are the cause? I did not use synthetic fertilizers. I thought that would be a greater factor of being too much nitrogen. I have something to learn here. Can someone address this more fully?
 
#22 ·
There is a basic principle that is continually lacking as far a how microbes exist in the environment... that principle is the same as for any other living thing...

Even people will thrive, struggle or die according to the environment... if you have too much undigested OM at any given location, it is like a bum living out of garbage can behind the restaurants... is this an environment in which people thrive???

Does compost tea create too much undigestted OM??? Does Sumagreen produce too much undigested OM??? Do the microbes in either one fit the environment of the turf in question???

You have anectdotal results for your Zoysia and someone else will have anecdotal results for their KBG, or their clay, sand, irrigated, nonirrigated and everyone's anectdotal results will be used and acted upon as though it was meaningful across the board...

One size fits all... if compost tea/sumagreen etc. works like a charm in Joe Blow's Tennessee Lawn, well that's good enough for me... I don't have to understand how living things work, I only have to believe in Joe Blow's results, becuz these products work consistantly across the board... Correct???

I'm not trying to be offensive and start an arguement,,, I'm trying to get some thought into the discussion...

What is your Zoysia turf like and what diseases occured??? Does your turf have a nice layer of dead lawn debris for the microbes to feed on??? Does your soil have structures built by these microbes with aggegrates conducive to drainage AND water holding capacity???

These are the questions, to start with, because there is no other way to answer, whether or not your organics was the cause... :)
 
#24 ·
I'll take a deeper look at the article when I have time. One good sentence is,"Good organic matter content along with good moisture and aeration are all that most beneficial microbes will need."

I think reality is that even with good products it will take time to restore a turf that has been on chemicals and synthetics. And even then,to run a business with 300 or more different "plots" is going to mean trouble. Some will keep their yard like a swamp,the yardmen will take the clippings and leaves to the dump instead of mulching some back in to the soil,throw in a little extreme weather now and then.

Which brings me back to,,"Good organic matter content along with good moisture and aeration are all that most beneficial microbes will need."
Organic matter through compost or simply mulching back in leaves & grass,proper watering and oxygen. Easier said then done when doing hundreds of "plots"
 
#25 ·
Trying to micro-manage c/n ratios is definately more irritation than value for 300 lawns... good moisture and aeration has everything to do with soil structure,,, not the plugger, running over a lawn, once or twice a year, that is watered every other day...
Niether is a soil test on 300 lawns very practical or even useful... It would be useful to be able to pull a plug , from the root zone and check out texture, structure and moisture content, even color and being able to understand what you're looking at in the field...

We only have 4-5 months of growing grass around here, and to just add Organic Fertilizer and expect it to do the job is NOT going to work... becuz of the soils...
does the OM enhance every soil??? almost alsways, YES...
does the OM fertilizer have enough mass to feed every soil, throughout the growing season??? almost always, NO...
A good soil enables the roots of any plant to assimilate a larger amount of the nutrients within...
The umn.edu article is attempting to describe the living soil, but the soil is most ignored in fertilizer applications... including Organic Fert application... and if somebody comes in again and says there is nothing to be learned by looking at a plug from the rootzone, this forum will be right back to synthetic ferts used to excess so that the plants are able to assimilate some of it...
 
#26 ·
Sorry got a bit off topic.


I really would like to give the sumagreen another go in the future.

Asked this question earlier and hope to get an answer from one of the people from Sumagreen soon.

When the microbes are fixing N and producing an N source in warmer temps, How can we suppress their activity until cooler weather?
 
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