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The green industry's biggest flops/mistakes/regrets?

39K views 94 replies 53 participants last post by  greendoctor 
#1 ·
I thought this would be a good discussion, as in most industries, each manufacturer has one or two product roll-outs or strategies that leaves you wondering what they were thinking (i.e. 4-cylinder Camaro in the 1980s').

1.) John Deere's 800-series. As a runner-up, I might add the decision to put the JD emblem on Lowe's/Home Depot-grade junk lawn tractors and spoil a great company's reputation for quality.

2.) Lawn-Boy's discontinuance of the 2-cycle push (or self-propel) mower. These things were legendary. They could at least make a decent four-stroke push mower if the decision was really emissions-driven, but they can't even do that. The Insight series of push mowers was junk, as are the latest models that the new parent company (Toro, I believe?) is selling. Honestly, how hard is it to put a proven homeowner's grade engine on a sturdy deck with a blade under it?

3.) Stihl gas caps. Over-engineered, insufficiently tested. I'm tempted to add 4-mix to this one, as a lot of people feel that Stihl bailed out on the two-stroke market while the competition was finding ways to still make powerful, reliable equipment that met emissions requirements for people who don't want to worry about valves or making an already heavy machine weigh even more. They do make the best chain saws though, hands down.

4.) As far as the industry as a whole goes, I'm going to add the EPA's CARB gas cans. What a joke. Have the people writing the laws actually had to use one of these cans themselves? There is no reason why a simple plastic gas can in the 21st century should have safety locks or vapor control devices (unless they actually didn't cause you to spill more fuel than a traditional fuel can).

5.) Ethanol! I don't think we've seen the tip of the iceberg with this stuff's propensity to degrade engine and fuel system components, either in the green or the automotive industry. When enough people realize that it's just welfare for mega-farms in a handful of politically-connected states, we'll end this nonsense.
 
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#2 ·
What a great idea for a thread! Good examples too.

Adding to your ethanol comment: I have always thought it was a bad idea to use anything from our food chain to make fuel. We can't eat the oil, after all.

I think the industry (golf primarily) jumped on the USGA sand-topdressing bandwagon too early (late 1970s) and without enough exploration and explanation of other methods. I think soils with high sand content are great but straight sand...I have tried it and am unconvinced. It is expensive to use and demanding in terms of maintaining it. I use a sand plus compost mix on athletic fields now wherever practical. I have one coming up soon that will be straight compost.

Looking forward to seeing the other examples pele come up with!
 
#3 ·
3.) I have had a hard time understanding what the engineers at stihl were thinking. What was wrong with the spin off caps??? The 4 stroke engines do build up a lot more carbon however I prefer the torque over my other 2 strokes. And sorry, husky makes the best saw, hands down
 
#4 ·
I don't put oil in my stomach so why would I put corn in my Lawnmower!!!!!!!!!! And..... great point about the gas cans.... I am lucky enough to have very generous In-Laws who bequeathed some oldies but goodies to me.. Here's another one that I know I will get slammed for but here it goes...... STANDERS????????????? Why? Don't get me wrong, there are some beautiful standers on the market that give great cuts, Wright and Gravely come to mind. But why? In all honesty(and I have done extensive research on the subject being in the industry for over 15 years) the only thing a stander does better than a rider is mow hills. And the only thing a stander does better than a walk-behind is give you a ride(sulky..... duh!) Yeah, I guess they free up a little bit of space on the trailer but enough to take the industry by storm? I mean, come on! Listen to this quote from the May/June issue of one of my favorite magazines, Green Industry Pros..... "Campbell is also seeing strong acceptance of the stand-on concept among his younger customers. To them, standing up is something different and "cool." And because these younger contractors are still relatively new to the business, they aren't as stuck on the idea of sit-down mowing." Huh? Sorry, but I don't care what age somebody is..... Productivity and comfort are paramount when mowing all day and just like "The Twindstorm Dually"......... This FAD will surely pass......
 
#5 ·
I don't put oil in my stomach so why would I put corn in my Lawnmower!!!!!!!!!! And..... great point about the gas cans.... I am lucky enough to have very generous In-Laws who bequeathed some oldies but goodies to me.. Here's another one that I know I will get slammed for but here it goes...... STANDERS????????????? Why? Don't get me wrong, there are some beautiful standers on the market that give great cuts, Wright and Gravely come to mind. But why? In all honesty(and I have done extensive research on the subject being in the industry for over 15 years) the only thing a stander does better than a rider is mow hills. And the only thing a stander does better than a walk-behind is give you a ride(sulky..... duh!) Yeah, I guess they free up a little bit of space on the trailer but enough to take the industry by storm? I mean, come on! Listen to this quote from the May/June issue of one of my favorite magazines, Green Industry Pros..... "Campbell is also seeing strong acceptance of the stand-on concept among his younger customers. To them, standing up is something different and "cool." And because these younger contractors are still relatively new to the business, they aren't as stuck on the idea of sit-down mowing." Huh? Sorry, but I don't care what age somebody is..... Productivity and comfort are paramount when mowing all day and just like "The Twindstorm Dually"......... This FAD will surely pass......
I am going to have to disagree with this one...standers are much more compact and lighter than a rider, and offer full view of the deck when mowing. I can duck under trees, get closer to obstacles, and turn around in smaller spaces. They are just as productive, if not more, on everything but very large, open properties. Standers are actually very comfortable, my back doesn't hurt after a full day on one. If i need to pick something up or get into trouble, i can just step off. Walk behinds are king of hills, no question about that, but they are slow. All 3 have their place in the industry, and for 90% of my mowing the stander is the way to go
 
#6 ·
Oh, I get it! You are not fortunate enough to have ever operated a Walker..... With Walker's tilt up deck, they are just as compact as a Stander.... My 26EFI is only north of 800 lbs.... As for full view of the deck and ducking under trees, closer to obstacles and turning in smaller spaces..... This is what Walker is known for! And this is where I am coming from.... But if all you run is mid-mounts, I guess a stander would benefit you... I guess...
 
#7 ·
Oh, I get it! You are not fortunate enough to have ever operated a Walker..... With Walker's tilt up deck, they are just as compact as a Stander.... My 26EFI is only north of 800 lbs.... As for full view of the deck and ducking under trees, closer to obstacles and turning in smaller spaces..... This is what Walker is known for! And this is where I am coming from.... But if all you run is mid-mounts, I guess a stander would benefit you... I guess...
Sorry, but I have twice as much time in the industry and standers are one of the best mowers out there--price and efficiency wise. Maneuverability, lighter footprint. Faster in tight areas and better able to get around obstacles. The only thing they don't do better than a ZTR is large open areas.

Too young to have used trail mowers (how many of you even know what those are?) but I did run a Locke reel mower a couple times. I've used everything else since--Toro Groundsmaster 300 series and the old single cylinder 52" decks. 455-D, 4000-D, Walker, Navigator, Lazer, Turf Tracers, etc.

The stander type mowers are flat out awesome. They don't totally replace a ZTR in all situations. They don't totally replace a WB in all situations. But for 95% of the work we do, they are the best machine for the money. I bought a 60" Grandstand last fall and a 52" this spring. The 60" replaced a Lazer.

For the OP--good list. My only regret is not getting a real job. lol
 
#9 · (Edited)
I think standers are stupid contraptions too.

However it's not about sitting down versus standing up, nothing like monkey butt to change someone's mind and sitting down while riding on turf for many hours most certainly can aggravate and often times create this painful situation, in my case I feel the stander is way too expensive for what it actually is.

5.) Ethanol! I don't think we've seen the tip of the iceberg with this stuff's propensity to degrade engine and fuel system components, either in the green or the automotive industry. When enough people realize that it's just welfare for mega-farms in a handful of politically-connected states, we'll end this nonsense.
I see the largest impact on the food industry, when tens if not hundreds of thousands of acres are taken to produce ethanol there goes the farmland that would have otherwise been used to produce edibles, the flipside of this coin is so nasty... We are literally driving on Africa's children's blood, the politics are such that when there is a food shortage there exists a downline that translates into certain countries suffering first, so much so that we can create the food shortage that someone else ends up dieing of hunger for, then we have certain humanitary organizations that offer relief, it all forms quite the picture.
 
#11 ·
Hey Mark, do you own a Walker?
Too young to have used trail mowers (how many of you even know what those are?) but I did run a Locke reel mower a couple times. I've used everything else since--Toro Groundsmaster 300 series and the old single cylinder 52" decks. 455-D, 4000-D, Walker, Navigator, Lazer, Turf Tracers, etc.
Had one. Loved what it could do, hated the amount of maintenance required to keep it running. Might have been a lemon or who I had running it or both.

I replaced with the Navigator. Far better machine IMHO.
 
#16 ·
I think the industry (golf primarily) jumped on the USGA sand-topdressing bandwagon too early (late 1970s) and without enough exploration and explanation of other methods. I think soils with high sand content are great but straight sand...I have tried it and am unconvinced. It is expensive to use and demanding in terms of maintaining it. I use a sand plus compost mix on athletic fields now wherever practical. I have one coming up soon that will be straight compost.
Sand topdressing and sand-based rootzones are used for a very specific purpose. The USGA Recommendations for a Method of Putting Green Construction do not call for straight sand -- they call for a rootzone mixture meeting a specific set of particle size distributions and specific physical properties. Among those physical properties is that rootzone mixtures be 1 to 5% organic matter by weight.

Topdressing with straight sand is common because sand serves to dilute organic matter in the upper portion of the rootzone, in order to reach that 1 to 5% goal.

If you're managing athletic fields, construction and maintenance standards are available from ASTM (American Society for Testing Materials) and STMA (Sports Turf Managers Association). Those are different from USGA (US Golf Association) recommendations because they serve different purposes.

Trying to manage lawns the same way putting greens are managed is going to require putting green budgets and efforts.
 
#17 ·
Scag Pro-V...Fail! Scags new walkbehind without the velocity deck ....Fail!! And I love Scag.

As far as standers go IMO have their niche just like Walkers. When I tested a stander it was extremely efficient up to a 1/4 acre to almost 1/2 acre. If all my properties were that size all I would run are standers. They are way faster than a walkbehind(9 mph on the one I tested). After 1/2 acre a ZTR was more efficient.
 
#18 ·
Stand on mower are like dirt bikes, do you see dirt bike riders setting down? Hardly ever, same thing with a stand on mower, your legs adsorb the shock insted of your spian, I can't ride a sit down mower ever agian, and I've been chopping grass for over 40 years now.

Seats? We don't need no stinking seats.
 
#19 ·
Oh, I get it! You are not fortunate enough to have ever operated a Walker..... With Walker's tilt up deck, they are just as compact as a Stander.... My 26EFI is only north of 800 lbs.... As for full view of the deck and ducking under trees, closer to obstacles and turning in smaller spaces..... This is what Walker is known for! And this is where I am coming from.... But if all you run is mid-mounts, I guess a stander would benefit you... I guess...
actually when I worked for a guy several years ago mowing all he ran was walkers. first commercial mower i ever used. beautiful cut, but slow and a rough ride, and they still don't turn in as tight of spaces as a stander. come leaf cleanups they are great.

It sounds to me like you are a die hard walker guy and hate everything else. you'll find plenty of people on here who hate them, and talk about overpriced!
 
#23 ·
I am for sure a die hard Walker fanatic.... been running them for over 15 years... However, I surely have appreciation for other equipment and manufacturers. I run Walker riders but Scag walk behinds.... I love Scag...I also really like Ex-Mark... (Mark Oomkes- been dying to try a Navigator.. If it stripes anywhere near the Lazers then it must be an awesome machine) I like Hustlers and Gravelys.... Would die to own a Ventrac for my acreage accounts. Not a huge fan of Bobcat or Snapper... Toro stuff is obviously top notch but that brings us back to standers.... The Grandstand does not thrill me.... I don't mean to start any beef but MOST, not all, of the reasons that folks are listing for standers being great is why I own a Walker. Compact for the trailer, you can see what you are mowing, you can mow under low hanging branches, you can mow well on hillsides.... Obviously the price point is a point of contention (no pun intended) So even though in my World, I don't see the big deal about standers...... The dude that's been running mid-mounts and walk-behinds that demos a stander and it's like the clouds part and rays of sunlight appear beaming and blasting against the bright red of a Grandstand is absolutely floored and thinks it's the best thing since white bread.. All power to him... I just don't see it.
 
#24 ·
Sand topdressing and sand-based rootzones are used for a very specific purpose. The USGA Recommendations for a Method of Putting Green Construction do not call for straight sand -- they call for a rootzone mixture meeting a specific set of particle size distributions and specific physical properties. Among those physical properties is that rootzone mixtures be 1 to 5% organic matter by weight.

Topdressing with straight sand is common because sand serves to dilute organic matter in the upper portion of the rootzone, in order to reach that 1 to 5% goal.

If you're managing athletic fields, construction and maintenance standards are available from ASTM (American Society for Testing Materials) and STMA (Sports Turf Managers Association). Those are different from USGA (US Golf Association) recommendations because they serve different purposes.

Trying to manage lawns the same way putting greens are managed is going to require putting green budgets and efforts.
Yes, thank you. I understand and agree. Typically my topdressing mix is testing out at 3-4% OM. Occasionally it contains a greater percentage of samd particle sizes on adjacent screens than what is ideal. For athletic fields it is fine and practical. Being able to provide the same mix from one year to the next has value.

Timing of sand topdressing on greens (primarily) is important, as I am sure you know. In terms of combating thatch and matching or offsetting the rate at which one's turf is producing it, as well as choosing a frequency and rate so that once diluted, OM remains in that 1-5 range requires a good eye, some good guesses, and good record keeping.

I built a good size green in my yard to USGA specs (very, very close) and maintained it for 17 years just to see if I could. Caring for it required an awful lot of time and materials - and water. Looking back at it now, I am sure it would have been easier to maintain had I used less sand. Then again, I did not need it to support 50,000 rounds a year lol.
 
#25 ·
I forgot about Imprelis too. Fortunately, I never used it. I was reading the brochure for it at lunch one day a couple years ago. After finishing it I clicked over to msnbc.com and saw the disaster news from Indianapolis. Threw the brochure in the garbage on my way out!
 
#26 · (Edited)
I can see the stander being of benefit to companies with crews who simply can't afford the learning curves associated with walk-behinds, I did think about that today because it is not a quick process to learn how to run one but for a solo operator I'll take a fixed deck, spend a year or two learning how to run it and save myself two thousand dollars.

Yes, I do think the Lazer Z offers a nice cut and I prefer it over the Zmaster, but compared to Gravelies they both suck.

As for Toros, seems to me the only mower they make that's worth a dime is their walk behind and because of the T-bars, and here we go again... Folks will spend thousands more just to have hydraulics so they don't have to operate pistol grips when they could have gotten a toro... But I just don't care for Toros past the T-bar, were it not for that patent I would have something else entirely.
 
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