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Trying to figure this out... Sponsors please help to

2K views 22 replies 11 participants last post by  Razorblades 
#1 ·
So I am trying to figure this out... With the raise in gas prices why are the manufactures coming out with big blocks on mowers that still have carbs. I mean I figure cost is a big thing but I think its completely ridiculous. The auto industry is switching to turbos and direct injection. Why not make these 37 hp Kaws, 40 hp Kohlers, and 35 hp Briggs with EFI? Manufactures please chime in here... I would love to pay 500 more for a more efficient machine if I know it will save me later in life on my operating costs. Plus, manufactures, wouldn't this help you in the service department to? Example: Jo is having a problem with his mower... he would have to take it to the dealership instead of Phil's mower repair right? I don't know, I'm just thinking out loud.
 
#4 ·
Go check these websites out and let me know how many fuel Injected options there are.

http://www.commercialpower.com/display/router.asp?DocID=76230

http://www.kohlerengines.com/onlinecatalog/enginefamilies.jsp

http://www.kawpowr.com/4cycle.asp

How many EFI options did you find? Not many.

Even more difficult, how about vertical shaft EFI options. Even fewer.

Cost comes into play also. EFI is an expensive option. It tough to quantify the actual amount of fuel saved in actual operating conditions.

I'm sure the engine OEM's have more low cost options on the way. They're just not available yet.

Q
 
#5 ·
These machines are using close to 3 gal. per hour... if you log 300-500 hours a season on a machine a season, and with gas at $3 a gal. ($3.50 by me). If they could make them get 2 gal. per hour and you cut your fuel usage you could save between $900 and $1500 a season (1 gal x $3.00 per gal x 300 or 500 hours). If you keep the mower for 3 seasons that's $2700-$4500 your business saves over a few years. I know I said I would pay $500 more for a mower with EFI.... I would even pay a grand... and all the manufactures use the same engines from the same companies so its not like they need to worry about their competition being that much more inexpensive... EXMARK, HUSTLER, talk to your boys for me lol I give kudos to Kohler for making the 31hp motor in the Scag Turf Tiger and Walker MTL EFI (and LC)...
 
#9 ·
your right about all the major players in the power sports division moving to EFI. the cost of these new machines arent really that much more over previous carbed models either.

the thing is, you are gonna need a fuel mapping controller to run in conjunction with a cdi box of some sort to get the fuel mixture right with the amount of spartk. thats alot of extras that im not too sure id want on a mower that im looking to be as reliable as possible.

http://www.microsquirt.info/

check that site out for add-on efi kits.
 
#11 ·
of course they will be reliable, but in how much time? the thing is when you scale down such technology, it ends up being harder to get everything to work right every time. im not saying it cant be done. im just guessing that reliability and cost are the major factors the OEM's are considering before implementation.
 
#14 ·
Guys... EFI isn't new technology... If they were direct injecting and putting twin turbos on gas motors like all the car manufacturers I would be a little weary... but its been around for close to 20 years... thats plenty to perfect it... also, how long has Kohler had the 26hp EFI? I think since 2001... once again... plenty of time to perfect it...
 
#15 ·
Although if you think about it... wouldn't that be sweet if they direct injected, twin-turboed a 19hp mower and it produced 38hp... think abou it: weight savings, gas savings, smaller machines with MASSIVE power... if only I was Jay Leno... I would totally finance it lol
 
#16 ·
Why would you put a twin turbo on a mower engine? This make no sense at all!

It is not cost effective to make these engines with direct injection at this point, it will come but small engines are at MINIMUM 10 years behind what auto manufactures are doing. Look at what their market is overall and ask yourself if it is a money making option for them at this point. They meet EPA requirements now with what they have so why change?
 
#17 ·
Why would you put a twin turbo on a mower engine? This make no sense at all!

It is not cost effective to make these engines with direct injection at this point, it will come but small engines are at MINIMUM 10 years behind what auto manufactures are doing. Look at what their market is overall and ask yourself if it is a money making option for them at this point. They meet EPA requirements now with what they have so why change?
Ha I was saying that because it would be cool... I just want more EFI thats all lol
 
#18 ·
We only use a small amount of the larger engines but I can give you some perspective from the manufacturers side. Cost, cost, cost. If a competitor has a similar product to what you have yet you're $2000 higher (or 15% to 20%) 9 out of 10 times you will lose the sale to your competitor.

Even if you get the time to show how in the long run it would save the customer money they will only sometimes consider it. Even worse, if the salesperson forgets to mention it while doing his(or her) pitch, the customer that may be interested in EFI could be lost as a sale unless the customer does his(or her) own homework. Many folks simply believe they are being gouged by the dealer or manufacturer with that higher price.

People may say they want EFI but the market will simply not bear the additional cost otherwise it would be out there. Some features will bear those premiums others will not. Something like EFI at this point will not.
 
#19 ·
We only use a small amount of the larger engines but I can give you some perspective from the manufacturers side. Cost, cost, cost. If a competitor has a similar product to what you have yet you're $2000 higher (or 15% to 20%) 9 out of 10 times you will lose the sale to your competitor.

Even if you get the time to show how in the long run it would save the customer money they will only sometimes consider it. Even worse, if the salesperson forgets to mention it while doing his(or her) pitch, the customer that may be interested in EFI could be lost as a sale unless the customer does his(or her) own homework. Many folks simply believe they are being gouged by the dealer or manufacturer with that higher price.

People may say they want EFI but the market will simply not bear the additional cost otherwise it would be out there. Some features will bear those premiums others will not. Something like EFI at this point will not.
But the same engines are used by all the manufacturers... if this new 37hp Kaw was made with EFI than there wouldn't be a difference between the competition right... and EFI is a pretty big thing, something you don't leave out of a sales pitch... kinda like liquid cooling right? You wouldn't leave that out would you...
 
#21 ·
Remember just 2 short years ago we wanted more horse power so they responded. Now we need better gas mileage prob next year we will see better fuel efficienty.

It takes time develope these things. It takes time but they will be here.
EFI should be a standard thing... Its like having all the movies on a blue-ray disk and everybody owns a blue-ray player... but mowing videos made in cassette form... if that makes sence to anybody lol... I'm trying to figure out a good analogy for why we are using technology today that is has been replaced many moons ago by something 10x better... When drawing up a 37hp engine... what on gods earth makes these engineers say "hey, theres better ways to deliver the fuel that can make this engine more efficient, powerful, easier to start, and and so on... naaaaa forget that lets use the same system that has been around since we were kids to deliver the fuel." I mean... now a days EFI can not be that bad to figure out...
 
#22 ·
Efi has been in toro line for years. It has also been in the Z mowers for 3 or four years.
 
#23 ·
These machines are using close to 3 gal. per hour... if you log 300-500 hours a season on a machine a season, and with gas at $3 a gal. ($3.50 by me). If they could make them get 2 gal. per hour and you cut your fuel usage you could save between $900 and $1500 a season (1 gal x $3.00 per gal x 300 or 500 hours). If you keep the mower for 3 seasons that's $2700-$4500 your business saves over a few years. I know I said I would pay $500 more for a mower with EFI.... I would even pay a grand... and all the manufactures use the same engines from the same companies so its not like they need to worry about their competition being that much more inexpensive... EXMARK, HUSTLER, talk to your boys for me lol I give kudos to Kohler for making the 31hp motor in the Scag Turf Tiger and Walker MTL EFI (and LC)...
The reference to these big block engines using nearly 3 GPH must have come from a post on a different thread where the poster had the list of alot of the popular engines GPH usage. That GPH ref. was for when the engines were under "full load". Most engines on ZT's are running in this "full load condition" a small percentage of the time that they are running. If you'll check some of the threads about these bigger engined ZT's I think that you will see that most of them use around 2 Gph or maybe less in some instances. If you do more research of the threads you will also see that the 25 to 27 HP engines use about 1.4 -1.6 GPH under normal type conditions. IF you compare the 27 Carb. Kohler's GPH to the 28 EFI Kohler's GPH when used on the same type machines, there's usually not but about .2-.3 GPh difference between the two. The EFI Kohler option on some mowers cost an extra $1000. So it's likely that the extra cost of the EFI engine will negate the savings in GPH gained by using this engine. (when GPH is calculated under normal use conditions). I don't think that the mower Dealers are jumping up and down from excitement aboput the possibility of having to send their Technicians to get alot more training and having to buy the expensive equipment that it takes to check these EFI and DFI engines. I'm not anti EFI or DFI, I was just pointing out (IMO) that the savings might not be as drastic as you think.
 
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