vinegar vs round up

Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by thinksnow, May 9, 2008.

  1. thinksnow

    thinksnow LawnSite Member
    Messages: 87

    I just ordered 5 gallons of burn out II. I was discussing the product with a buddy who uses round up. He said he read the warning label on the back of the round up and he claims that it has no hazardous residual effects. Now neither one of us are brain surgeons so the two of us trying to debate the dangers of round up is not exactly an intellectual conversation. Someone please fill me in.
  2. MarcSmith

    MarcSmith LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 7,157

    lets compare burnout II conetrate to roundup pro...

    round up pro is about 4% mix rate. Ie 4 oz or so per gallon of water

    but the Burnout II concentrate you must mix 1 gallon of BOII with 2-3 gallons of water....oh and its 40 buck per gallon
    here some excerpt from the MSDS for Burn out 2
    "contains acetic acid, and is flammable, and extremely corrosive. contact with this product will result tin severe eye injury and possible permanent damage. contact with this product will cause severe skin irritation and chemical burns. Breathing vapor will cause severe respiratory irritation and pulmonary edema. if ingested this product could cause burns and destroy the tissue in the mouth, throat, and digestive tract.

    sounds real good to me... the ld50 of concentrate roundup is grater than 5000, but the ld50of clove oil (one ingredient in burnout ) hs an ld50 of 1200, as does sodium laruel solfate.
  3. robtown

    robtown LawnSite Member
    from NJ
    Messages: 224

    try phydura
  4. NattyLawn

    NattyLawn LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,643

    If you're paying 40 bucks a gallon, you're not looking too hard. We sell it for $22.

    Is the question about which one is more safe? Which one's more effective? On warm days give me the BurnOut. The cooler the weather, you might want to use RoundUp. With alot of customers it comes down to personal preference. They don't want to use RoundUp, so you tell them about BurnOut. No matter what the substance (nothing is 100% safe) you give pre-cautions and recommendations.

    I took a quick glance at the RoundUp MSDS and there pretty similiar, except for the flammable part.

    Marc, I'd be more worried about the sodium lauryl sulfate in your shampoo and toothpaste than what's in BurnOut.
  5. treegal1

    treegal1 LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,911

    thank god for birth control or there would be more brain surgeons running around. really how is there even a comparison, has google gone dead, is there roundup in your beers? read some real warnings and do some research. and no the burn out is not a favorite here, it is purpose made tool and we have not found its use yet. roundup has no use ever at all. try something more in line with a primitive to use, FIRE!!! so easy even a cave man can do it
  6. treegal1

    treegal1 LawnSite Gold Member
    Messages: 3,911

    Roundup threatens human health

    A group of scientists led by biochemist Professor Gilles-Eric Seralini from the University of Caen in France found that human placental cells are very sensitive to Roundup at concentrations lower than that in agricultural use. The findings were published in a US journal, Environmental Health Perspectives, in March.

    According to French publication Le Monde, Seralini, as a member for years of the French Commission on Biomolecular Genetics (CBG), responsible for preparing the files for requests for field studies, then GMO (genetically modified organism) commercialisation, 'ceaselessly demands more intense studies on their eventual health impact'.

    An epidemiological study in the Ontario farming populations showed that glyphosate exposure nearly doubled the risk of late spontaneous abortions, and Seralini and his research team decided to find out more about the effects of the herbicide on cells from the human placenta.

    The French team used human placental cell lines, in which very weak doses of glyphosate showed toxic effects and, at still weaker concentrations, endocrinal disturbances.

    The study thus showed that glyphosate is toxic to human placental cells, killing a large proportion of them after 18 hours of exposure at concentrations below that in agricultural use. This, they suggest, could explain the high levels of premature births and miscarriages observed among women farmers in the US using glyphosate.

    They warn that since glyphosate is used worldwide, its residues may thus enter the food chain, and glyphosate is found as a contaminant in rivers. While Roundup and similar products were originally used against weeds, 'they have become a food product, since they are used on GMOs, which can absorb them without dying,' Seralini told Le Monde.

    The scientists also compared the toxic effects of Roundup (the most common commercial formulation of glyphosate and chemical additives) and glyphosate (the active ingredient) by itself. They found that the toxic effect increases in the presence of Roundup 'adjuvants' or additives. These additives thus have a 'facilitating' role, with the result that Roundup is always more toxic than its active ingredient, glyphosate, at least by two-fold.

    The toxic effect also increased with time, and was obtained with concentrations of Roundup 10 times lower than in agricultural use.

    They concluded that the harmful effects of Roundup (the combination of chemicals) and not only glyphosate (the active ingredient) can be observed in mammals. Seralini is calling for extended animal studies.

    Roundup 'lethal'
  7. Organic a go go

    Organic a go go LawnSite Member
    Messages: 211

    There is no such thing as vinegar vs. RU. They both work and since they both work I think the question is why the chem in the first place. Especially considering the following.

    A lot of the so-called IPM guys ought to do a little web search on glyphosate resistance. Yep. 2 plants have confirmed complete resistance to glyphosate in my state and if it's not in yours yet it will be. Very soon. There is widespread reports of goosegrass resistance globally but none thus far in the USA. When that begins to happen its going to be very hard for this product to remain on the market. It'll be yet another chem that lost its effectiveness due to developed resistance.

    We wont be having this conversation then.
  8. Smallaxe

    Smallaxe LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 10,082

    Most of your soybean meal and cgm is ru resistant. So they soak the fields with the stuff. Square mile after square mile.
    Organically grown apples are not always pleasant in appearance or insect and disease-free. But they should make a strong dose of vinegar.

    Imagine if we had a product that was not creating a problem somewhere else. Used by people because it works.

    Another cottage industry?

    Does anyone know how to make vinegar?
  9. MarcSmith

    MarcSmith LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 7,157

    I don't see round up burning my eyes, tearing up intestinal tract or burning my lungs and skin...

    on one gallon of mixed roundup you have 4 oz of chemical, which equates to 2 oz of glyphostae based on 50% concentrate. so in one 16 oz soda bottle of mixed roundup you have .25 oz of glyphosate.

    where in the same 16 oz soda bottle, you have 5 oz of burnout...which is a chemical cocktail

    so 1/4 of a shot of ghlyphosate or 5 shots of burnout....I'll take the roundup...

    I did a price search for bournout and thast price I saw, still 22 bucks a gallon is still outrageous. sicne you need one gallon to make three of solution.

    round up is 60 buck a gallon- and with that gallon of roundup I can make 32 gallons of 4% solution... at a cost of 1.87.

    Heat/cold- roundup is just as effective in hot weather. as it is in the cool temps. if anything round is more effective in the heat, as the plant is more rapidly taking in the glyphosate when its hot.

    I don't need to see the 15 minute brown out to know the product is working. I have had great results with round on small weeds and crack weeds even going down to 2oz per gallon. and at the 1/2 oz rate i can spray over the top of liriope and juniper and some vinca to get control of weeds

    If you want another option of the organic side, look in to Scythe.. fatty acid and parfin...and you still ket the 15 minute brown out...but at higher rates than roundup...5-10%, and its toxicty is also less deadly than brownout... and at 59 buck lost cheaper, and one gallon should cover an acre...

    I realize that going green is not cheap, but there are plenty of organic chemicals out there that are more dangerous to the environment than glyphosate or other herbicides, when applied correctly.

    Again no long term studies have been done with brownout to see if they kill placental cells, or fish or other items.
  10. NattyLawn

    NattyLawn LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,643

    It's quite clear your very pro Roundup at this time. I do remember a post some time ago about your school possibly looking into organic alternatives to conventional pesticides. It looks like you didn't go that route. It seems like you're here to defend your point (and that you have) that RoundUp is a better, cheaper alternative than BurnOut. It does work better for it's intended purpose, but it also has other detrimental effects as stated in other posts. I'm so tired of people pulling LD's 50's out there ass and it's best when used correctly (I don't need to hear it's no more harmful than table salt again). One of the big problems is it's not used correctly. I'd also take BurnOut over any RoundUp or herbicide (although I do use 3 way) because they don't have soil residual. It's not running off into streams, rivers and other waterways. While BurnOut does require initial care in handling (like any other herbicide. I don't plan on driking any), it's after effects are not there.

    To correct myself, I was stating that BurnOut is much more effective when you have warmer temps. I wasn't comparing it to RoundUp. I also have used Scythe with BurnOut and with RoundUp. Scythe is very effective.

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