I cant explain why any company does what it does. But deep watering will produce a better root system than light frequent waterings. Roots have a habit of growing toward their best water and nutrient sources. Frequant light watering ensures that source is going to be close to the surface of the soil. This is fine as long as you can continue with the regular irrigation, but if your irrigation system fails or you are put on a watering restriction, then the roots of the plant dont penetrate downward far enough to be able to pull moisture from the reserves deeper in the soil. Deeper watering cycles will also have healthier lawns with less fungal problems. Fungus lives and breaths in that aerobic zone that is close to the soil surface, you want fungus, keep it wet and damp at the top of the soil.

On overfertilized lawns, the soil will often become compacted due to the carbon conversions the endup in the atmosphere. With this compaction, deep watering becomes harder to achieve. The harder the soil the more the water runs off. Also with compaction, roots arenot able to pentrate downward into the soil. If a root hits 300psi of resistance in the soil, it will just sendoff another shoot looking for a better nutrient and water source. This is often closer to the surface of the soil, again, this is in an area that is faster to dry out in the event of a drought situation.

Frequent lite waterings are a good indication of poor cultrial practices and usually from more than one source. It could be the mower guy cutting to short, or the chemical guy using to much or the wrong chemicals, or the homeowner that thinks the lawn is supposed to be dark green and actively growing during the hot summer when it would usually be dormant.

 

I fully agree with Mudstopper on the first and last paragraph but the middle paragraph sounds a little wacked!

The middle paragraph confuses me a little! I agree that runoff is more likely on compacted soils...but since when does over fertilizing cause soil compaction!

The only thing that I have ever known to cause soil compaction is excessive traffic and/or heavy equipment.

This is a new one to me!

SOIL TYPE, SOIL STRUCTURE and SOIL CONDITIONS (ie moisture) affect soil compaction.

I have never heard of fertility having anything to do with the compaction of soils! Soil compaction is a physical action in the soil as it had nothing to do with chemical reactions!

 

I fully agree with Mudstopper on the first and last paragraph but the middle paragraph sounds a little wacked!

The middle paragraph confuses me a little! I agree that runoff is more likely on compacted soils...but since when does over fertilizing cause soil compaction!

The only thing that I have ever known to cause soil compaction is excessive traffic and/or heavy equipment.

This is a new one to me!

SOIL TYPE, SOIL STRUCTURE and SOIL CONDITIONS (ie moisture) affect soil compaction.

I have never heard of fertility having anything to do with the compaction of soils! Soil compaction is a physical action in the soil as it had nothing to do with chemical reactions!

I agree rcreech. In fact, midwest university research indicates that heavy/compacted soils require more nutrients than good soils. We see this evident every spring. Loam & sandy loam lawns green up quickly compared to heavy clay soil lawns which take several more weeks before they take off (unless they received the "late fall winterizer" (heavy fert).

Watering techniques on heavy/compacted lawns may also differ (especially on slopes) compared to "good soil lawns" due the difference of soil permiability. New homebuilders here are required to have a 95% compaction rate or higher, hence the subsoil (clay) that most sod is laid on nowadays. No wonder more & more new homeowners have irrigation systems.:usflag:

 

Air, water and nutrient movement is very most important for plant growth (as we all know)!

If soils are compacted they lay wetter and don't have good air, water and nutrient movement! You can also lose N (denitrification) when soils are compacted and lay wet.

Adding fertilizer on compacted soils usually shows a quick plant response due to poor root growth in compacted soils (root restriction).

We had to run our crops last year on wet soils because it rained ALL fall...and now this year we are seeing some K defeciencies on the leaves of the corn. Our soils are not defecient....but the roots are being restricted!

Help us out Mudstopper....where did you hear this? What Base Saturation levels would cause this? Just kidding!!!!!!
I really am not trying to mess with you...I just would like for you to explain your "ideas" so I can try and understand! We have totally different ideas when it comes to soils...but you are the only one I have ever seen with these ideas! Thank you for the patience with my questioning!

 

50% growing medium. 25% air. 25% water. That's kinda what I was taught - regarding good plant growth. Heavy soils tend to lack optimum air & water.

I know there is no perfect garden here. Great posts here by ALL! Nice job/good threads! and nobody is picking on anybody (thank God)!

 

Same %'s that I was taught also!

 

On overfertilized lawns, the soil will often become compacted due to the carbon conversions the endup in the atmosphere.

Mudstopper,

I have looked all over the internet and can't find anyone that links high fertility and compaction.

Where did you learn this?

 

Heres a little something for you to read while I do your research for you.
http://www.acresusa.com/toolbox/reprints/droughtmyth_nov00.pdf

 

Regarding the original question, here is a new recommendation from Michigan State that will throw a wrench in everything you believe:

http://www.turf.msu.edu/docs/turftipsE09.pdf go to amounts and schedules

If one were to only read this one pub., you would think that daily watering is the new recommendation.

But, go to this later article, and the daily recommendation is put into perspective:

http://www.ipm.msu.edu/CAT04_land/L07-02-04.htm go to "turf stressing out"

LESSON: Read publications from the Land Grant Ivory Tower with care.

 

I disagree with the deep water=deep roots theory. As the MSU bulletins state, turf roots NATURALLY become shallow in summer time, so deep water will just blow by them, whereas frequent watering at a lighter rate will keep them going until fall, when they head back south. Doc Vargas put it best, when he said "Roots don't have a brain, they don't say 'Hey, the water's down there, I'll go get it.'" So to answer Riggle's original question, yes it is an old wife's tale. But as an aside, I DO think there is a tremendous waste of water out there. I have seen this summer more than ever where property managers see a brown spot and they crank the old clock up intead of finding out why the spot is there to begin with. Usually it's a rotor that isn't turning, so now it's not turning for an hour, instead of 30 minutes. I've seen a host of properties with standing water next to dormant turf.

 

I disagree with the deep water=deep roots theory. As the MSU bulletins state, turf roots NATURALLY become shallow in summer time, so deep water will just blow by them, whereas frequent watering at a lighter rate will keep them going until fall, when they head back south. Doc Vargas put it best, when he said "Roots don't have a brain, they don't say 'Hey, the water's down there, I'll go get it.'" So to answer Riggle's original question, yes it is an old wife's tale. But as an aside, I DO think there is a tremendous waste of water out there. I have seen this summer more than ever where property managers see a brown spot and they crank the old clock up intead of finding out why the spot is there to begin with. Usually it's a rotor that isn't turning, so now it's not turning for an hour, instead of 30 minutes. I've seen a host of properties with standing water next to dormant turf.

true, however......the reason roots NATURALLY become shallow in summer is because of drought...right?

On a proper watering schedule (proper for the particular site and not just the ole rule of thumb to water deeply/infrequently) the roots wouldnt come up close to surface...I would think?

 

Not sure what you can get out of those articles? It doesn't change anything. Of course you wont have as many bugs if you water all of the time. The stressed turf article looked like general theory and not a recomendation.

On another note...2 years ago rutgers (big turf program) in response to many complaints of mid and late season crabgrass from quite a few co's..said that some mystery enviornmental condition is causing this problem. I have been preventing crabgrass in sand and in the worst clay...for about 20 years, and have never had an issue when I applied EVENLY! Take their info as you see fit.

 

Mstine...just read your post...well said.....it's a constantly changing situation that has to be read like a newspaper all of the time.

 

Interesting! But they say that's for cool season turf. Here's the link by the TX A&M Extension Service in San Antonio. Just the opposite!

http://aggie-horticulture.tamu.edu/extension/homelandscape/water/water.html

 

true, however......the reason roots NATURALLY become shallow in summer is because of drought...right?

On a proper watering schedule (proper for the particular site and not just the ole rule of thumb to water deeply/infrequently) the roots wouldnt come up close to surface...I would think?

If I remember correctly from my seminars I attended roots become shallow because of the temperature of the air & soil.

Mike I
Mike's Total Lawn Care

 

obviously someone is wrong, now who is it? One thing that makes sense is that too much water in the soil robs the plant of air, but I guess then someone will say that plants can use the air in water.

From personal experience, the lawns that are watered every day are overgrown forcing my to mow at 1mph when I get there each week and have the most weed problems, but they do look the greenest and most healthy.

 

Turfgrass roots are dying through oput the season, the the plant will produce new roots! Now with cool season turfgrass, when the soil temp gets too warm, maybe above 70 degrees, can't exaxtly remember the exact temp, root growth cecess, shallower and less roots in hot tempatures

~ 80% of cool season turfgrass roots are in the top 3" of soil profile, so you need to water deeply, ~ 4' deep, then wait for soil to dry out, then water deeply again..... You help force the roots deeper looking for water and nutrients...if plenty of water on the surface... roots will be shallower

 

Air, water and nutrient movement is very most important for plant growth (as we all know)!

If soils are compacted they lay wetter and don't have good air, water and nutrient movement! You can also lose N (denitrification) when soils are compacted and lay wet.

Adding fertilizer on compacted soils usually shows a quick plant response due to poor root growth in compacted soils (root restriction).

We had to run our crops last year on wet soils because it rained ALL fall...and now this year we are seeing some K defeciencies on the leaves of the corn. Our soils are not defecient....but the roots are being restricted!

Help us out Mudstopper....where did you hear this? What Base Saturation levels would cause this? Just kidding!!!!!!
I really am not trying to mess with you...I just would like for you to explain your "ideas" so I can try and understand! We have totally different ideas when it comes to soils...but you are the only one I have ever seen with these ideas! Thank you for the patience with my questioning!

Rcreech,

Too much nitrogen (over fertilization) will burn up Organic Matter and Put Ca. in solution. The organic fraction has a High CEC too... remember? The goal should be to build OM in the soil, not burn it up too fast.

Burn up the organic fraction/humus with overfertilization, and less microbe life and less pore space in the soil, i.e. more compaction to name a few.

This was the #1 problem I saw with a lawn cared for by TGCL, prior to my taking over.

I am suprised you did not learn about C/N Ratios in College.

Mudstopper, I am on your page, and the Turf looks awesome!

Great soil tilth too!

Pete D.

 

Heritage,

This sounds crazy to me, but what do I know huh! The more N you add the quicker you will accelerate breakdown of high Carbon materials which should make your soil healthier increasing OM!

Where do you guys heat this stuff?

Never heard of this and AGAIN....I would like to see data that supports this. Nowhere have I seen or found any.

BTW, what it too much N? We put on 200 units of N on our corn ground to grow the crop....wouldn't you think this would cause major compaction for us using your theory?

And yes I did learn about C:N ratios in COLLEGE, but it was they only discussed the ratios in how it broke down. The lower the C:N ration the quicke it breaks down (table scraps vs straw for wood). I have never heard of adding N and it causing compaction!

 

My,My....we're getting just a bit off topic here.

rcreech, please remember, they are talking about OVER fertilizing - applying WAY more N than the crop and/or soil requires. Bad things can happen if you over fertilize with any type of N, chemical or natural.

I would think any sound fertilizer regime would have improved the TGCL lawns if EXCESSIVE N was not a part of it.

So, I could imagine that EXCESSIVE N might cause OM depletion. And then, when some physical force was applied to the soil - gravity, vehicle traffic, freeze/thaw, wet/dry, etc., the soil might become more compacted with less OM present. Again, we're talking EXCESSIVE N, not fertility theories.

Soooo, what about watering theories? Deep or shallow?

 

My,My....we're getting just a bit off topic here.

rcreech, please remember, they are talking about OVER fertilizing - applying WAY more N than the crop and/or soil requires. Bad things can happen if you over fertilize with any type of N, chemical or natural.

I would think any sound fertilizer regime would have improved the TGCL lawns if EXCESSIVE N was not a part of it.

So, I could imagine that EXCESSIVE N might cause OM depletion. And then, when some physical force was applied to the soil - gravity, vehicle traffic, freeze/thaw, wet/dry, etc., the soil might become more compacted with less OM present. Again, we're talking EXCESSIVE N, not fertility theories.

Soooo, what about watering theories? Deep or shallow?

I agree off topic, as I don't know where this came from but for some reason Heritage guns for me on here and is always trying to slam me, but I think it is funny! Every since he found out I was educated it pissed him off!

Well if this is the case, if we are talking about what happens when you overapply.... I will state that if you apply 1 gallon/1000 of 3-Way it will kill your lawn! Lets be practical on here guys!

I guess I don't ever have to worry about adding excessive N due to its cost!

Like I said we apply 200#N and have 30 N credits/ac from our beans, so "what is excessive N"? That is tons more then you will have on a lawn at any time, and this doesn't cause compaction, and I haven't seen our OM decrease. Infact since we have been no-till it is on the rise.

Nowhere will you find N and soil compaction related! Timfurf on the other thread says that Ca:Mg causes compaction. The base boys need to get their stories straight!

 

If deep roots are what you are trying to accomplish I always thought that the higher you cut the grass the deeper the roots will be, scalp the lawn and you are effectively pruning the roots. That was always my understanding and if I am incorrect someone will surely bring it to my attention.

I believe that you have to experiment and determine what works best for you, I have tried both ways and the infrequent long waterings did not give me the quality of turf grass that I was looking for, now when it is hot and dry I water every other day and it seems to work well for me.

 

Heritage,

This sounds crazy to me, but what do I know huh! The more N you add the quicker you will accelerate breakdown of high Carbon materials which should make your soil healthier increasing OM!

Where do you guys heat this stuff?

Never heard of this and AGAIN....I would like to see data that supports this. Nowhere have I seen or found any.

BTW, what it too much N? We put on 200 units of N on our corn ground to grow the crop....wouldn't you think this would cause major compaction for us using your theory?

And yes I did learn about C:N ratios in COLLEGE, but it was they only discussed the ratios in how it broke down. The lower the C:N ration the quicke it breaks down (table scraps vs straw for wood). I have never heard of adding N and it causing compaction!

Rcreech,

More N will breakdown OM FASTER into an Available Form to plants...This LOWERS the Carbon Reserve in the soil.

It's really quite simple. Less OM in soils can create less microbe activity.

Less Ca. on soil colloid, from high inputs of Ammonical OR Urea N, can make soils more compact WITHOUT physical compacting from traffic, especially high Mag soils. These types of N put Ca. into Solution, where it can Leach and or be take up by plants. I learned this from a Rutgers Professor in a discussion about Summer Patch Disease.

If you are talking about SAND, Compaction is not an issue and Deep watering is not enough.....Sand needs water more frequently.

Pete D.

 

I agree off topic, as I don't know where this came from but for some reason Heritage guns for me on here and is always trying to slam me, but I think it is funny! Every since he found out I was educated it pissed him off!

Well if this is the case, if we are talking about what happens when you overapply.... I will state that if you apply 1 gallon/1000 of 3-Way it will kill your lawn! Lets be practical on here guys!

I guess I don't ever have to worry about adding excessive N due to its cost!

Like I said we apply 200#N and have 30 N credits/ac from our beans, so "what is excessive N"? That is tons more then you will have on a lawn at any time, and this doesn't cause compaction, and I haven't seen our OM decrease. Infact since we have been no-till it is on the rise.

Nowhere will you find N and soil compaction related! Timfurf on the other thread says that Ca:Mg causes compaction. The base boys need to get their stories straight!

Rcreech,

I am not pissed off and I welcome educated opinion.

Timturf know's that if Ca/Mg ratios get out of wack, soil will become more compact. So does Muddstopper.

I must ask you why YOU question this? Talk to any Farmer or Golf Course Super with Hi-Mag soils, and Compaction......They add Hi-Cal lime to keep soild from getting tight (compact).

Lot's of good replies here on the watering advice too.

Pete D.

 

I am glad to hear that, but I thought it just seemed that way.

We're cool!

Maybe I am not familiar with this due to our natural Ca soils. We have calcarious soils here in OH.

When you say high Ca lime are you talking Gyp....because Mudstopper said in a post a few weeks ago that adding Gyp didn't change soil tilth.

My point was this...and then I will shut up.

When I hear or talk to anyone about soil compaction, fertility has never been in the conversation. It is always equipment and traffic related (or sidewall compaction from tillage or planting too wet). I have found no info on the internet about fertility and compaction.

What levels of "over fertilizing" are you talking about? Why would someone add this much fert anyway?