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Welcome to the Solu-Cal Forum

Discussion in 'Solu-Cal' started by Solucal-USA, May 9, 2007.

  1. muddstopper

    muddstopper LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,343

    I guess my train of thought is that the solucal being more soluible than the lime, that it might attach to the P faster, and probably does, than regular ground limestone. This is probably a case where a pereson would just have to test for themselfs, unless studies are already available to cover this type of situation.
  2. OP

    Solucal-USA Inactive
    Messages: 8

    I understand your train of thought now. I have lots of data about Solu-cal, T.O.G and liming practices in general. I will see if I have anything that addresses this point exactly.

    In just thinking through this, The calcium in Solu-cal would not be much different than in ordinary lime in this instance. The T.O.G is acting as a chelating agent to make the calcium immediately available to the plant for uptake. In regular lime products, the calcium is still there waiting. In this situation with regular lime, it may present a longer opportunity for interaction with the phosphorus because the calcium is still there for a while instead of being utilized by the plant.

    I would think if the PH is Low, correcting the PH will be of far more benefit in making the phosphorus available to the plant, even if their is some sort of P & calcium interaction.

    Solu-cal is also used regularly when seeding with high P starter fertilizers. The results are fantastic. A Solu-cal combination 6-12-6 product has also been sold in a limited area as an enhanced starter fertilizer with excellent results. I have sold it and used myself. It helps germination and establishment of grass seed. From experience, I wouldn't think the P was being tied up much at all from the establishment results i've seen for the last few years.

    It's a great question on your part and I will see if I can find any data to address this though, and if I do, I will post it here.

    Thanks for input.
  3. muddstopper

    muddstopper LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,343

    I am certanly interested in seeing any and all data you have about the Solucal products. I spend many hours reading such materials and trying to put all the pieces of the puzzel together to obtain maximum results with minimal amounts of products.

    My thoughts are that, the high cation charge of the calcium coupled with the high anionic charge of the phosphorous will result in a very fast conversion to tri-calcium phosphate. Much money is spent to make P soluible and immediantly available to plants. The calcium in limestone usually isnt very soluible and doesnt become so until it interacts with plant root exudates and microbiology. It just seems to me that applying a calcium product that is readly soluible, at the same time as a Phos. product that is readily available, that the conversions to tri-calcium Phosphate would be much quicker. Not necessary a bad thing as long as you have a good microbiology to break it down to usuable forms for the plants, but if such microbiology already exsists, then why not just use tricalcium phosphate in the first place?

    Still, in my soils with super low calcium saturations and low pH's, using a calcium source that is soluible and fast acting might provide some short term benefits. Even tho for the long term rising of Ph and calcium saturation levels, regular pulverized limestone would be a much more economical choice.
  4. heritage

    heritage Inactive
    Messages: 1,358


    Whats the point of using your product, other than the fact it's 4X more soluable? It is also 4X as expensive,
    Per Unit of Ca.

    In Acid soils, Ca will go down annually from leaching. I want to Maintain Base Sat. of Ca at a sustainable range of 60-68%.

    Yearly apps. of your product would mean more labor, Verses Me applying Hi-Cal Or Dolomitic as tests show need, usually 2-3 years to maintain Base Sat. % between 60-68% Ca.

    If your product was about 1/2 the price, I could see the Benefit on an acid soil with Very Low Base Sat. of Ca, where Ca needs to be in Solution at a high enough rate for plant/root growth.

    But why so much more $$$, Just because you have Complexed Ca with Your Organic Acid Chelate?

    Pete D.
  5. OP

    Solucal-USA Inactive
    Messages: 8


    Thanks for the inquiry.

    I am limited on time at this very moment, but I do want to address each of your points seperately for you later on tonight. Much of what you say, I can't disagree with, but their are some other variables you aren't considering that I want to point out for you .

  6. muddstopper

    muddstopper LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,343

    While waiting for the info on the other variables we need to consider, I took a look at the University studies supplied in your signature and now have some other questions.

    When looking at the control areas where no lime was applied, it seems the resulting ph results are very similar between all the test plots at the 2wk 5wk and 8 wk testing. In each of the plots the Ph rose about 1/10 of a point, even where no lime had been applied, and only a difference of 2/10 a ph point between the area with no lime verses the area with 1000lbs of solucal. This to me suggests that not all variables are being taken into consideration. It would be interesting to know what the weather conditions where at the time of each testing.

    When looking at the base saturations of calcium, 41.9 to 37.5 for the area with no lime, a change of -4.4%. And 50.5 to 49.0, a -1.5% change with 1000lbs solucal. This has me thinking that the amount of moisture in the soil wasnt taken into account when doing these test and had more to do with the results than the amounts of lime, or type, that where applied

    Another interesting point was the magnesium saturation levels, also rising with each testing period. This suggest that the calcium isnt sticking around, or is driving off the Potassium , which levels where not reported. The addition of calcium should lower magnesium saturation levels, not raise them. At any rate, the calcium and the magnesium levels are out of line with a fertile soil, magnesium being in excess and calcium being to low. My assessment, based on the limited information provided, is that larger amounts of calcium will need to be applied to provide any lasting effect on the Ph and fertility levels on this soil. For this, a regular liming product would be more cost efficient.

    Another unpublished variable is what grade of regular lime was used. It could have been a coarse ground ag grade lime product that only passes thru a 60 mesh screen, a pulverized lime product that passes thru a 100 mesh screen or even a finer grind material. The results will vary considerably between the coarser ground products and the finer grind materials. Forgive me for not trusting the info provided in the University test, but it looks fishy to me.
  7. OP

    Solucal-USA Inactive
    Messages: 8

    Mudstopper, Can I ask you what application you would be using Lime for? Is it on customers lawns , golf, or some other grounds maintenence?

    I also don't have the specific answer about moisture and type of lime, but I am going to contact the person at URI that performed the testing to find out.

    Also, I will be posting the newest Labels and Info for Solu-cal tonight. SOlu-cal is now registered and labeled as a lime product and is now a 38% Calcium as opposed to 29% . I will post the newest labels and temporary labels with these changes tonight once I figure how to uplaod the attachments.

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