[Gravel Rat]

I don't know what is happening but I think I will have a tough time compeeting with the haywire people. The economy still isn't doing that well and now we are getting people jumping into the landscaping and mini excavating thinking they are going to strike it rich.

A couple guys they are buying this old junk and trying to get in the mini excavating business. Their hoe is okay but its the trucks they are buying to haul with and trailers. The market is flooded with mini excavators for hire what makes these people think they are going to get work.

People are jumping on the being self-employeed bandwagon so they are getting into landscaping or mini excavating etc. Heard today another guy getting into the junk removal business and his truck is a real POS.

The worst part is these guys will be working for cheap to get work and end up driving the rates down and there will be no profit. Once these fly by night haywire people end up going broke then the long term guys are fighting to get the rates back up.

 

[curtisfarmer]

The mini excavating market is going to hell. Rental stores and every 6pack conttactor has it on thier front burner. I am discouraged being in the same market...too much iron....to few customers.

 

[YellowDogSVC]

there isn't much barrier to entrance anymore. Any hack can rent a machine, put a sign on his truck, buy a prepaid cell phone and go into business. No corporate sales tax, no franchise taxes, no sales tax permits, no insurance, no experience, no reason to do it right, and most likely a drinking problem. yes, I am exaggerating a bit but not much! I have enough trouble competing against guys with serious machines and experience so I don't worry too much about the hacks. If I know they are fly by night and not following the rules, don't see their names, dba's etc., on the county's render list, I'll turn them in for failure to render. A $1000 lean against their property will wake them up. I also turn in landscapers that don't charge sales tax for things like stump grinding, tree trimming, and of course landscaping. I'll do whatever is legal and moral to feed my family and keep the playing field level. Yes, there is a lot of rental iron, cheap machines, etc., but I also get to go in and fix up the other guy's mess. Personally, if you worry too much about the hacks, you will never get any sleep. Do you want those customers anyway? If they are that cheap, then you can't make a living doing it the right way...besides, when the hack is out of business or in jail for DUI, then you can charge what you want.

 

[ioilyouin]

We recently had the reemergence of a crew that did some time in the pen. Needless to say I threw up a couple extra locks when I saw them. I don't understand how you can be in the "Asphalt" business and stay clean, but these guys look like they came off the cast of Jersey Shore. There's plenty of hobbyist also out there, giving all of us a rough go.

And I agree with the drinking thing.

 

[wanabe]

GR, im not taking sides here, but I would rather see someone try and work for a living rather than let the welfare system suport them. We have a whole bunch of lasy @ss people in this country who do not want to work. If you are doing eveything the right way and taking care of your customers you will be ok. I am never the low bidder on any job I do. Selling yourself and your services is what I always try to do, not sit arround and worry others in the biz.

 

[Gravel Rat]

These people that are trying to become self-employeed are people that have been laid off from their job usually not related whatsoever to what they are trying now. The mini excavating market is overloaded with equipment don't these people see this. There is already the guys that have been in the business for 5-10 years are starving to death with this recession. Now you have a fly by nighter coming in and under bidding a job making very little to no profit and driving the rates down. Once a homeowner starts paying a lower rate they are not going to pay anymore than they have to.

The landscaping industry is flooded aswell I guess people buy some tools and think they are a landscaper.

My guess is people are sick of putting resumes out looking for a job they are turning to self-employment and industries that already have enough people doing the work for the amount of work that is out there.

There is another guy in the area he bought a mini excavator and has access to a smaller full size and he is undercutting the rates down to get work. It is pizzing off the other excavation contractors that have more expenses that can't work for a cut rate that barely covers fuel and expenses.

 

[mow king]

In my opinion there will always be fly by nighters and I think it was a bigger problem in the better economy. Everyone saw the landscapers busy working 7 days a week especially on new construction and jumped on the band wagon...

People are lot more hesitant to get into a bunch of debt or spending their savings on exacavtors, trucks, etc without the promise of steady work.

You have to focus on setting yourself apart with quality, doing more advanced hard-scapes, finding a niche, etc. Once you try to compete just on price especially in this industry...you're setting yourself up for failure.

 

[queen of spades]

I started this 3 years ago, I'm incorporated and always bid at least 65/hr on jobs, sometimes more if I think they customer can afford and is willing to pay. God knows there are no shortage of cheapskates looking to hire someone to dig a 100' x 5' trench for $100. Sadly, there will be desperate people willing to take on a job at that rate in this economy.

Anyway. I don't apologize for getting my business started. I'm small and will probably never compete with any of you guys. My market is small and the jobs I take on small. But one thing I do not undersell my services. Have great reviews and plan on keeping it that way.

 

[YellowDogSVC]

We recently had the reemergence of a crew that did some time in the pen. Needless to say I threw up a couple extra locks when I saw them. I don't understand how you can be in the "Asphalt" business and stay clean, but these guys look like they came off the cast of Jersey Shore. There's plenty of hobbyist also out there, giving all of us a rough go.

And I agree with the drinking thing.

Having a thirsty bobcat, chipper, and a couple of diesel trucks I spend a lot of time at our one and only local gas station. I see the contractors in the am load ice, sodas, and a case of beer into their coolers. I see some of the same guys, the SAME day but later in the evening, loading ice and MORE beer into their coolers or carrying a couple of 12 packs to the single cab f150 with 4 or 5 exchange students crammed into it. It's just plain sad. I'm not a goodie goodie.. I even had a beer tonight but I can't see how these guys drink so much beer and actually make it home much less make it to work the next day.. For the ones with kids or a wife at home..shame on them. Go home and take care of your families and leave the 14 or 15 bucks for the gas station 12 pack in your pocket so your wife doesn't have put the kids on the free lunch... :nono: OK, that's a soapbox but why the heck are so many contractors drunks? I've come close to decking a few myself...belligerent drunks at the end of the day!

 

[YellowDogSVC]

I God knows there are no shortage of cheapskates looking to hire someone to dig a 100' x 5' trench for $100. Sa.

I've actually seen it.. pick, shovel, and case of beer given to an exchange student instead of getting a trencher, hoe, or rocksaw.. real sad.
Maybe we should go after Western Union. A lot of the cheap guys and fly by nights send their tax-free earnings off to God knows where.

I also personally know of a guy who hasn't filed a tax return in years. Has his tree company in his wife's name (she has a full time job elsewhere) and the guy only takes cash. He doesn't have the required sales tax permit either. he doesn't compete against me...thank God. :hammerhead: but it annoys the heck out of me.

 

[YellowDogSVC]

I started this 3 years ago, I'm incorporated and always bid at least 65/hr on jobs, sometimes more if I think they customer can afford and is willing to pay. God knows there are no shortage of cheapskates looking to hire someone to dig a 100' x 5' trench for $100. Sadly, there will be desperate people willing to take on a job at that rate in this economy.

Anyway. I don't apologize for getting my business started. I'm small and will probably never compete with any of you guys. My market is small and the jobs I take on small. But one thing I do not undersell my services. Have great reviews and plan on keeping it that way.

you might be surprised at how small of an operation some of us are

 

[Gravel Rat]

Many of the excavation contractors in my area are 1-2 guy operations with two excavators one mini one fullsize etc.

 

[ksss]

In my opinion there will always be fly by nighters and I think it was a bigger problem in the better economy. Everyone saw the landscapers busy working 7 days a week especially on new construction and jumped on the band wagon...

People are lot more hesitant to get into a bunch of debt or spending their savings on exacavtors, trucks, etc without the promise of steady work.

You have to focus on setting yourself apart with quality, doing more advanced hard-scapes, finding a niche, etc. Once you try to compete just on price especially in this industry...you're setting yourself up for failure.

I agree completely with the above. Fly by nighters? Don't have that problem. Established dirt businesses that have been here for many years are tipping over, it will be even worse this year. No one is trying to get into this business here.

I have always tried to rest my fate on doing a better job and charging a little more. Be easier to work with, and give the customer more than what they were planning on. When money was flying around this worked well. Now everything takes a backseat to price. So your customers demand the same level of service, but want your number to be cheaper than their lowest bid. Its a bit of bind. The good thing is your getting the calls based on your reputation for quality work. Whether you chose to drop your shorts, that is your decision, but at least you get the calls.

I think diversification is huge. Where I am at it is very important. The residential market is very cut throat, in fact I have never seen anyone digging foundations for less than a dollar a square foot, but they are now. No money in that. So I try to side step that market and do other things that pay better. That diversification is the name of the game right now.

 

[YellowDogSVC]

I agree completely with the above. Fly by nighters? Don't have that problem. Established dirt businesses that have been here for many years are tipping over, it will be even worse this year. No one is trying to get into this business here.

I have always tried to rest my fate on doing a better job and charging a little more. Be easier to work with, and give the customer more than what they were planning on. When money was flying around this worked well. Now everything takes a backseat to price. So your customers demand the same level of service, but want your number to be cheaper than their lowest bid. Its a bit of bind. The good thing is your getting the calls based on your reputation for quality work. Whether you chose to drop your shorts, that is your decision, but at least you get the calls.

I think diversification is huge. Where I am at it is very important. The residential market is very cut throat, in fact I have never seen anyone digging foundations for less than a dollar a square foot, but they are now. No money in that. So I try to side step that market and do other things that pay better. That diversification is the name of the game right now.

i hope the mulching will help with that diversification. It has been an awesome tool for us and now I'm diversifying back to dirt work more and more. Eventually, I think I will be at 50%- 50% dirt/trees. I'd like to do 50% trees and mulching, 30% landscaping, and 20% dirt and driveways. Not sure if that is enough diversification. A lot of different jobs fall under "tree work" from land clearing, to difficult creek cleanup to chipping and mulching larger brush piles. When things were hot, trees kept me busy full time. I'd rather not play the bid war game so I am doing some dirt work again and keeping my customers in house so to speak. I think it's better not to introduce them to other contractors if I can do quality dirt work or landscaping.

 

[ksss]

i hope the mulching will help with that diversification. It has been an awesome tool for us and now I'm diversifying back to dirt work more and more. Eventually, I think I will be at 50%- 50% dirt/trees. I'd like to do 50% trees and mulching, 30% landscaping, and 20% dirt and driveways. Not sure if that is enough diversification. A lot of different jobs fall under "tree work" from land clearing, to difficult creek cleanup to chipping and mulching larger brush piles. When things were hot, trees kept me busy full time. I'd rather not play the bid war game so I am doing some dirt work again and keeping my customers in house so to speak. I think it's better not to introduce them to other contractors if I can do quality dirt work or landscaping.

The mulching will be a big portion of that. This Spring will really mark the begining of some nice mulching projects. I hoping to continue to grow that portion, if this goes well this Spring with the mulching projects, I will have a significant foot into this market. As far as percentages it seems that every year brings a different mix. Whatever it takes to stay busy. Mulching is nice because I can do that without any hired help. I am also wanting to expand the precision grading portion of my business. The large commerical building market has fallen off the cliff, but I really plan on pressing that more, even if its on smaller projects. I really missed the market with this precision grading project, dam that sucks.

 

[zak406]

I am going to play devils advocate here. I agree with the poster who said atleast they are out trying to work instead of sitting at home and collecting welfare (god only knows that would be easier).. Now i do not landscape or do construction any more, when i left construction last year times were bad the company i was working for who has been around for a long time was bearly making ends meet. (so i know how hard it is for you guys) Here is were im going to play devils advocate, in this economy and this time (until things get better) you have to feed your family. Just about every job out there is cut throat, right now. So what im saying is if you get offered a job for 250 dollars, that you would normally do for 500, i would rather take the 50 bucks you make after expenses at the end of the day than sit around and make nothing. Its sad but true making 50 dollars at the end of the day may not put steak on the table but its something, and imo something is better than nothing. Another thing gravel rat, and im not knocking you. You just bought another truck with montly payments which is fine, however you cant knock the guys who under cut you with a pos truck..... You need to make x amount every month just to pay off your truck payment. Were as they dont have to because they have no payment, and if they do, it may be very little compared to yours. The simple fact of the matter is some people can live on x amount of money were as others need xxx amount of money to make it... My family as i am still young are not rich nor are we poor, we are probably middle, middle class. We do not take vacations, we do not buy new cars every 5 years, we do not own a boat, vacation house, nor do we own camp or camper. That is just throwing away money. With that being said all we need is enough to pay off our morgtage and bills every month and that is it. So what im getting at is since we dont own boats, vacation houses, camps, campers, or brand new cars, we dont have to bring in as much as a family who does buy brand new cars every year, or has a camper or camp. Does those material items make other familys better than ours, in our day and age people seem to think owning a corvette is a status symbol of money, when in reality those people may be strapped to the wall in debt.... Business these days (once again until things get better, which i hope they do soon) will require survival of the fitest (sp) who can have the lowest over head to bid the lowest to get jobs.... That of course is my opinion i know some of you may not agree with me but time will tell...... *trucewhiteflag**trucewhiteflag* Btw i may have merged away from the topic a bit but its good discussion none the less....

 

[Ecoscapes]

I gotta say this is my 7th year in biz and I just bought a kubota 121 mini ex. I do quite a few stonewall rebuilds here in NH, stonework in general and the mini ex will revolutionize what I do and how I do it.. I think if you buy one of these things and you have a plan, you have your niche, and a real use for the machine you'll be just fine. If you make a big equipment purchase with no real plan, just hoping that everything will work out that's very risky; there's a big difference between the folks that have worked their way up, paid their dues, have a plan, vs the folks that just jump in and hope for the best and try to give good deals; they may take jobs away from the quality contractors initially but who gets called to fix their mess a few years down the road? It all works out!

 

[YellowDogSVC]

The mulching will be a big portion of that. This Spring will really mark the begining of some nice mulching projects. I hoping to continue to grow that portion, if this goes well this Spring with the mulching projects, I will have a significant foot into this market. As far as percentages it seems that every year brings a different mix. Whatever it takes to stay busy. Mulching is nice because I can do that without any hired help. I am also wanting to expand the precision grading portion of my business. The large commerical building market has fallen off the cliff, but I really plan on pressing that more, even if its on smaller projects. I really missed the market with this precision grading project, dam that sucks.

Go for it. Eventually you will be posting pics of your mulching fleet. It is like lawn maintenance. Always something to mulch or remulch especially if you have fire country out there.

 

[YellowDogSVC]

I am going to play devils advocate here. Here is were im going to play devils advocate, in this economy and this time (until things get better) you have to feed your family. . We do not take vacations, we do not buy new cars every 5 years, we do not own a boat, vacation house, nor do we own camp or camper. That is just throwing away money. With that being said all we need is enough to pay off our morgtage and bills every month and that is it. So what im getting at is since we dont own boats, vacation houses, camps, campers, or brand new cars, we dont have to bring in as much as a family who does buy brand new cars every year, or has a camper or camp. . That of course is my opinion i know some of you may not agree with me but time will tell...... *trucewhiteflag**trucewhiteflag* Btw i may have merged away from the topic a bit but its good discussion none the less....

the logic only works assuming that someone's business is tied to their family's lifestyle or bank account. Personally, I'm incorporated and draw a steady paycheck. My personal family has no debt but a small mortgage. No credit cards, car loans, etc. Business has a little debt but it isn't tied directly to me.
If someone LEGITIMATE can work cheaper, God bless him or her. If that same person works cheaper because he uses shortcuts (no insurance, sales tax permits, etc.,) then I have a problem with that. If that same guy cheats by dumping brush on the side of the road versus disposing of it properly, I have a problem with that. The fly by nights, aka really cheap guys cheat out here. They just do. I was hired 2x last year to clean up the same lot where a roll off contractor dumped 2 loads, 2 months apart. It took a little investigative work but we caught the company. It was a large company that was doing haul-off's off the books. The homeowner had to be in on it because he was paying with cash. He only admitted that the material was his (boxes and fed ex stuff with his name and address) after criminal charges were discussed by the sheriff's dept. He was paying $500 for 24 yd rolloff in a $700 industry. The company took the cash, off the books, and dumped the loads right off the road on a rural lot that was a few miles from the jobsite. That's fly by night activity by a larger company!
We have another issue here that gets me fired up. I hate the fact that contractors and developers can burn. I'd much rather see recycling but not just because I chip and grind. It think it's better though I admit I occasionally burn. Still we have laws that govern burning and contractors routinely ignore them even when cited. The rules are in the chipping and grinding company's favor, that is, it might make it more attractive to recycle brush versus burn it but when the contractors ignore the rules and burn they are cheating. When one of the gravel pits got slow, the owner put out the word that he would accept brush for burning on his land. A big no-no in the eyes of the law and there were contractors lined up during the burn ban looking for a cheap place to dump. That's a bunch of BS and the guy got shut down (I didn't call but one of us old piles smoldered during the burn ban and the winds picked up some embers and started a brush fire!).

What I'm saying is go ahead and work cheaper if you can as long as you aren't cutting customers. Even if things are tight, if a contractor is cutting corners by not working with insurance, then he is not putting his customers first and that is the definition of fly-by-night.

 

[AEL]

I saw an add for a local guy on kijiji (same idea as craigs list) that i will try to look up. But he was charging $35 an hour for skidsteer services, which included any attachment he had (auger,breaker , power rake ) and free delivery within 100kms (60 miles). I sent a very nice email to him...