what the?

Discussion in 'Landscape Lighting' started by Mike M, Dec 7, 2007.

  1. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,102

    How would using a UL1838 Transformer, mounted and installed correctly on the outside wall of the garage, wired to the approved fixtures using CSA wire and connectors, not be up to code Joey?
  2. JoeyD

    JoeyD LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,933

    ohhhhh James..Exactly, this is how lame UL listings can be. See I know as well as you do that there is no danger. BUT IF YOU ARE SO UP TO CODE then you should know that you cannot legally use a UL 1838 TF to power up a light on a structure. You can only power up lights in the landscape.

    I guess they dont teach that in the NS class?
  3. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,102

    Sorry Joey, conjecture is not enough to convince me on this one. Please quote chapter and verse of UL1838, showing where it supports your claim.

    Also, we have the CEC that supports our installation of approved LV outdoor luminaires on structures. The CEC (NEC where you are) is THE CODE for installations. If the CEC says it is ok, then it is ok.
  4. johnh

    johnh LawnSite Member
    Messages: 34

    Hi Joey,
    This is an extract from the UL1838 listing IFDH.
    "Recessed luminaires (lighting units) intended for installation in a building wall or similar application are provided with a means to connect conduit and may be installed such that insulation (and other combustible materials are) is in contact with the luminaire (lighting unit)."
    Link to the complete document http://database.ul.com/cgi-bin/XYV/template/LISEXT/1FRAME/showpage.html?name=IFDH.GuideInfo&ccnshorttitle=Landscape+Lighting+Systems,+Low+Voltage&objid=1074096561&cfgid=1073741824&version=versionless&parent_id=1073988149&sequence=1
    Although it does not specifically say it can be mounted ON a structure, certainly if it can be recessed into one, it may.
    CSA TILB-58B also permits surface and recessed mounted applications, providing they are wired correctly to code.
    I would be interested to know where you read that though.
  5. JoeyD

    JoeyD LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,933

    1.5 The luminaires and low voltage system components covered by this standard are intended for garden, walkway, patio areas, or similar outdoor locations and for certain indoor locations such as atriums and shopping malls. The power units are to be installed indoors or outdoors in accordance with the marking on the product (see 6.3).

    1.5 added August 7, 2007

    So I ask you, if the NEC is the code for installations and that is what you go by then why all this fuss regarding UL listings?? I mean the NEC clearly states in

    NEC Article 411 Lighting Systems Operating at 30 Volts or Less


    Not once does it mention it is not permitted in Landscape!!!

    So in fact if you go by NEC there should never be an argument as to a UL 2108, UL 1598, or a UL 506 unit.

    Again we can dive more intot his. This is an rgument nor you or I will ever win becuase our loyalties and views lie in opposite areas.
  6. NightScenes

    NightScenes LawnSite Silver Member
    Male, from Kingsland, Texas
    Messages: 2,214

    I believe that the real issue would be that the fixtures are within 10' of water and therefore should be on a pool and spa rated transformer. This is one of those areas where UL is really freaky. Why anyone would use a "standard" instead of code is beyond me.
  7. JoeyD

    JoeyD LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,933

    LOL....It all comes down to interpetation. SO what is it. Do you guys go by what UL 1838 says or by the CEc/NEC? What side of the fence are you on here? "Although it does not specifically say it can be mounted ON a structure, certainly if it can be recessed into one, it may."
    You sound like an inspector interpeting the code in his own way. Again, we have been dealing with this for so many years and it is always the same stuff over and over and over.

    Believe me I have been around long enough to have already heard all of these arguments. It comes back to the NEC, we always have said it is the NEC that makes the rules, UL is just there to collect a check. So if you are pro 1838 and that is the law then the CEC and NEC should not dictate your installations. You should abide by UL 1838 and use 1838 wire, connections (which I know NS has), lamps, fixtures, timers, and whatever other component you use in your system and it should only be used to light up LANDSCAPE! I mean that is it's intended use right, LANDSCAPE LIGHTING?Good luck finding 1838 components but again 1838 is for a SYSTEM not just a Luminaire or Power Supply. SO how are you going to argue that they are now ok to be put on a structure.

    So you can whip out all the same articles and listing information that has been read to us forever or you can get on the conference call tommorow with us and go through it all as gentelman verbally.

    I do understand that it is completley safe, just like it is completely safe that if my TF's are ok to power up lights in a house or on a structure why would putting it in dirt hurt anything. It has all the same protection as any other unit that is ok for dirt and landscape. Your only argument are far fetched scenarios of lightning striking while wiring the 22v tap and standing in a puddle of water.

    Anyway, I am going to post our UL/NEC/Code conference call number up. We will provide the forum so we can all get on and discuss this as gentleman. I will moderate and allow Nate to represent Unique. And again all is welcome, manufacturers and distributors alike.

    Joey D.
  8. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,102

    And the beat goes on...............................................
  9. JoeyD

    JoeyD LawnSite Silver Member
    Messages: 2,933

    Is that it?

    So are you going to join us tomorrow for a further discussion. This could be very good for you to hear. I am learning more and more as the day goes on and I have my UL and NEC books opened up. I need to knock the dust off of them anyway before AOLP so this is all good stuff. I just wish it was dead, I think UL 1838 is just an old school listing for Malibu systems and not for the professionals like everyone who participates here. Sure it makes things a bit safer but so would a 55 mph governor on a car or truck.
  10. INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting

    INTEGRA Bespoke Lighting LawnSite Platinum Member
    Messages: 4,102

    Joey flip back over to the other thread. (Questions for FX users)

    It isnt about UL1838 or UL506 or UL5085 or UL1598 or CSA 66-1988 at all... It is about using tested, certified and listed products IN THE APPLICATION FOR WHICH THEY ARE APPROVED.

    This is the crux!

    If you had inspectors breathing down your neck, looking into the products you are using, cross referencing them to the tables and standards and finding out that you are using a transformer in an application for which it has not been approved, what would you do?

    It isnt good enough to simply send off a product to a testing lab and have them test it to some arbitrary standard to which you are certain they will pass... You have to have them tested to the standard that applies to their application.

    In our industry that is UL1838 and CSA 22.2 66.1, 66.2, and 66.3. . Like it or not, UL1838 is the standard for Low Voltage Landscape Lighting Systems. It is the standard that covers the application of this equipment for use in a low voltage landscape lighting installation. As I understand it, it is currently going through revisions and updates.

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