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Discussion in 'Organic Lawn Care' started by turbo5560, Jan 14, 2008.

  1. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 795

    Hi Gerry,

    Always a pleasure to hear your well thought out logic.

    I have an email from the owner of Denali Gold admitting freely that there is sphagnum peat moss in his product. He says that he is no longer involved with Alaska Magic. I do not even know if they are in business. The fact remains that there is an abundance of whole sphagnum peat leaves contained in 'Alaska Humus type products'. This does not fit my definition of pure humus. If you were to look at the mix you get from KIS under a microscope you will see whole sphagnum peat leaves. Again; There is nothing wrong with the product. It just isn't pure humus.

    There are two schools of thought (that I know of), scientifically, regarding what humus is and how it should be defined. 1/ is that it is comprised of large humic polymer molecules made up of covelant bonds and completely different in chemical make up to the originating plant/animal material
    2/ is that it is comprised of non-covelant bonds and is composed of some partial components of the original plant/animal material. In the first instance there are shared electrons but not in the second. In the 2nd instance the material is in greater transition while the 1st is more stable.

    I do not know of a scientific definition or theory concerning
    humus which allows for full recognizeable plant forms. Do you? We are discussing science are we not?

  2. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 795

    Yes alas and I responded with a post of great yahooing and encouragement to Elaine. I also claimed astonishment at Gerry's overwhelming knowledge of the leftwingcommiepinko plot to sell the world this warming crap. For this I was banned forever and ever from Gerry's bash Al Gore lawn forum. I believe one article he posted claimed that they got the readings wrong because thermometers were placed too close to parking lots and barbeques. Dum scientists! Could we see that article again Gerry? I can't get on your site to search the archives. I'd like to send it to some colleagues.

  3. phasthound

    phasthound LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 5,158

    On Gerry's organic lawn care yahoo list, when Elaine said global warming was for real, Gerry told her that she should stick to what she knows. He kicked me off his list when I said he had lost all credibility at that point.

    Sorry for going off subject. I'm done.
  4. Kiril

    Kiril LawnSite Fanatic
    Messages: 18,334

    No worries, you can view it first hand here.

  5. Gerry Miller

    Gerry Miller LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 504

    This is where the whole question about using peat moss originated:

    Peat Moss Problems

    True organic people don’t use peat moss except for one thing – storage of perishable materials. Here’s the research explaining why: Peat Moss - Viking Preservative and two of the most interesting quotes from the report:

    Peat bogs have long been known for preserving organic material. In Scotland, tubs of butter have been found intact after 1,800 years; elsewhere, a loaf of bread thousands of years old was found.

    In a demonstration for the Norwegian state radio network NRK, Christensen opened a plastic container in which a Zebra fish had been stored in peat for two years. It was intact and smelled fine.

    Peat moss is anti- microbial – the last thing we want to use to help build healthy soils. Plus, peat moss is much more expensive than compost. Store your bulbs and food in it - but keep it out of the soil.

  6. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 795


    Blessings and may the Norwegian's be with you. (that may be where it started for you but certainly not for me) Perhaps if you search the archives of the CT list you will see that Elaine accepted my data. The kind of data she supports and helped initiate; direct observation. As you make no reference to that data which is the basis of the logic I presented but instead prefer to spew cut and paste, there is no point in discussing this futher.

    Adios my poor perturbed friend.

  7. Tim Wilson

    Tim Wilson LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 795

    Well I decided to look up those old posts myself. These are from Elaine after I posted my data a year or so ago;

    "Hi Tim -
    Cool! I hope you will share the results of your testing once you get to the US. Comparison of the pictures you already sent, with what you get when own here should allow a good comparison.
    The drying process may be what results in the reduction in the biology from when the peat moss is collected, to allow it to be shipped across the border.

    Elaine R. Ingham
    Soil Foodweb Inc., Corvallis, Oregon
    Soil Foodweb Inc., Port Jefferson, New York
    Soil Foodweb Institute, Lismore Australia
    Soil Foodweb Institute Cambridge, New Zealand
    Laboratorios de Soil Foodweb, Culiacan, Mexico
    Soil Foodweb South Africa, Polokwane, SA
    Soil Foodweb Canada, Vulcan, Alberta, Canada
    Soil Foodweb United Kingdom, Laverstoke Park, UK
    Coming soon -a second lab in Canada, one in Kenya, and in Japan!"

    "My understanding is based on trying to get peat moss and other materials across the US border.

    I have spoken to officials at the border, and they have said that if there is no phytosanitary label, the materials will be prevented from crossing the border.

    If there is proof that the material has been treated in accordance with the phytosanitary regs, then it will be allowed to come across.

    When you look at peat moss of any kind taken from a peat bog, life abounds in that material.

    Tim's observation, and the data he is showing (look at the pictures he has taken), make that un-equivocally clear.

    But when that same peat moss gets to us in the US, the life is no longer there. Your experience, Steve, with peat moss being "dead" is the typical case.

    So, how was that peat moss treated to kill the biology which is rampant in it when it is collected?

    Peat bogs are anything but dead. The biology is amazing, fantastic and a joy to look at.

    What happened to that life between whre it was collected and when you get it?
    Elaine Ingham
    President, Soil Foodweb Inc.
    SFI Corvallis, OR
    SFI Port Jefferson, NY
    SFI Lismore, NSW, Australia
    SFI Cambridge, New Zealand
    SFI Culiacan, Mexico
    SFI Jerome, Idaho
    SFI South Africa

    Since that time I did test Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss in the USA and it tested to be just as microbially active.

    Somebody better tell all those life forms in the peat bog that they are being preserved by anti-microbials.

    BTW to my knowledge the phytosanitary regulation is for USA product crossing into Canada not the other way round. (at least for peat)

  8. growingdeeprootsorganicly

    growingdeeprootsorganicly LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 766

    very informative thanks you guys!
    learn something new every day
    I my opinion from tims pic'c is that Alaskan magic is peat or defiantly has it in it

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