1. Missed the live Ask the Expert event?
    Catch up on the conversation about fertilization strategies for success with the experts at Koch Turf & Ornamental in the Fertilizer Application forum.

    Dismiss Notice

Who's Got Crab Grass Where There Was Grass

Discussion in 'Pesticide & Herbicide Application' started by CLARKE, Aug 13, 2001.

  1. Greg Amann

    Greg Amann LawnSite Member
    Messages: 162

    Try an experiment in a small area. Generously sprinkle baking soda on an area of crabgrass. After 3 applications of Dimension at half rate over the last six months we are just now having it pop up in central Florida in our St. Augustine yards. Baking soda has yet to even yellow the St. Aug. but the crabgrass is nothing but dead rhizomes after 1 week. I have followed up checking the ph and it's not effected at all. I don't know how this will work on other types of turf but it works very well with no damage on the St. Augustine. We apply about 1 lb. to a 10x10 area.
    Good Luck
  2. TruGreenDedLawn

    TruGreenDedLawn Banned
    Messages: 14

    After reading all of this the answer lies beneath four big letters!


    But becarefull spraying it over 85 degrees it will burn out a lawn fast. It may also require you to use multiple apps.

    P.S. Who ever posted the attached pic you might want to add some 2,4-D for the dandelion in there too
  3. cp

    cp LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 263

    I am going to register for my pesticide app. class starting next Monday. Talking with the professor giving the class he said that I will need to take a plant I.D. course as well. After reading this thread I will definately take the classes. Whoo!:blob3: :blob4: :blob3:
  4. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476

    Here in the Metro NY area we had almost no rain for the last week of April & the 1st 2 weeks of May. Not exactly the correct weather to set up a crabgrass barrier. If a pre-emergant was applied on 4-15 & the rate had been on the high side, then 12-14 weeks of control may have been expected. Which means that if the product was irrigated into the soil (remember, it sure didn't get rained in), then one treatment would have run out of gas on July 15 - August 1st. Nothing unusual about that. You want zero Crabgrass. Wait til Mid-June & apply Dimension at .25 Lbs/AI/A. Or just treat all the lawns with pre-emergant twice.
    Not treating established crabs with a post-emerge just because it has set seeds only insures that the big ugly dinner plates have a chance to completely suffocate whatever turf is left and make repair that much harder.
    Plow damage that had been reseeded prevented a lot of curb edges from being treated this spring.
  5. greenngrow

    greenngrow LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 403


    The Label says to apply MSMA between the temps of 80 and 90 degrees. I have limited success using this product. I have burned lawns at even 80 degrees. I think the humidity has more to do with the burning than heat.????

    I just sprayed a neighbors lawn (8/23/01) and today the lawn is showing a burn in places. I am needing to do two more today but am afraid that is will burn them (temp in the mid 80's and humid)

    There is a chance of rain???

    The product will work but it does take several applications.
  6. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476

    MSMA will dis-color (burn) sensitve grasses such as Creeping Red & Chewings Fescue. Ditto for all types of Bent Grass. Poa Trivialis & Poa Anua both hate virtually all herbicides but they prefer cool, shadey, damp & compacted soils where Crabgrass is rarely a problem anyway. If MSMA has damaged Tall Fescue, then the rate was high or the turf was stressed and should not have been sprayed. What kind of Fescue was damaged?
    The MSMA label calls for 1 oz per 5 gallons water. This finished 5 gallons will then treat only 1000 square feet of turf. An unusally high volume of water. Are you & your spray equipment prepared to work at these high water volumes? I doubt it.
    Most applicators I know use between .8 - 2 gallons water per 1000 square feet. What volume of water was being used that resulted in burn? Adjusting the rate of MSMA to more conentional volumes is dangerous to turf & illegal. THE LABEL IS THE LAW. So why take the chance?
    Desirable cool season grasses for higher maintenance in this area are the newer Perennial Ryes & the improved Blue Grasses.Hopefully used in a blend. Irrigation & good fertility on these grasses yeild the best high-cut turf for metro New York & most of the USDA zones 6-8. Since MSMA will singe them at high temps, why use MSMA at all. Because its CHEAP? There's nothing cheap about losing customers and repairing herbicide damaged turf for free. Since most Lawn Care customers don't even notice Crabgrass until July & August (neither do a lot of applicators), use of such a temperature limited herbicide is really not the best approach.
    Proper timing, rate, application technique, & selection of a pre-emergant herbicide rarely fails under a normal pressure crabgrass year (what's normal anyway?). But if a newer (weak stand of turf) customer has breaks in control, it will be evident long before now if careful scouting of the high pressure edges has been practiced. If the crabgrass you are seeing right now is past the 2-tiller stage & 10-12 inches in diameter; then it didn't "just appear". It's been up for at least 6-10 weeks. Why are we just now noticing it & trying to control it? Back at the end of June, a 1/3 - 1/2 oz per gallon shot of Acclaim would have erradicted the problem before the client even noticed it. Without any phtyto-toxicity. If the crabs are smaller than that right now (1 tiller or less) then your pre-emergant herbicide lasted just about as long as it was engineered to and the applicator was not to blame.(Acclaim @ .75 - 1 oz, read the label). But in the future, a split application of a good pre-emerge would be advised. Especially next year as each mature Crab is capable of 2000+ seeds at maturity. Good crabgrass pre-emergant herbicides will yeild control of around 90-95%. That still means that 5-10% of all emerging crabgrass plants will have a chance to establish unless you do something about it.
    Lets assume only one crabgrass plant matured and produced seed in a lawn in 2000. Before frost killed the plant it produced 3000 seeds. That single Crab got BIG & covered 1 square foot.(You got lucky & none of the seeds blew around) Even if you did a GREAT job and selected a high rate of the BEST herbicide and timed the application PERFECTLY & got 98% control (uh-huh)Then in 2001 we still have 2% of 3000 seeds = 60 CRABS PER 1 SQUARE FOOT THIS YEAR. This still LOOKS like poor results in most peoples eyes.
    Lets try to remember: Dead (frost killed) crabgrass is visible in a lawn all winter & early spring, unless seeding, thatching, or raking has physically removed it. Look this winter for brownish, spidery looking "skeletal remains". Leaves will have perished be January, but stems are higher in Lignin and (like roots) will be visible until April in this area. We need to scout new & potential clients for these artifacts of prior failures during the slower winter months. Applicators should be using that time of year to design & sell the correct program for a given situation during this time. If we understand a pests life cycle, monitor the weather and the lawns & then act accordingly, these "surprises" never happen.
    Work with vendors (if their competent & willing), Manufacturers Reps, State or County Ag agents, etc to explore ALL the Crabgrass Herbicide options before comitting to a plan for 2002. Or the seeds produced this year will probably make life miserable for you next year. IF you still have the customer.
  7. wolfnkirk

    wolfnkirk LawnSite Member
    Messages: 8

    MSMA is not acceptable in St. Augustine....even if it is labeled. But I am curious about the cental floridian using baking soda for control of crabgrass. Does it work? Maybe I should experiment with say.....apple juice....or flour.....or maybe paprika would work! Anything thats cheaper than restricted use hebicides!
  8. tremor

    tremor LawnSite Bronze Member
    Messages: 1,476


    MSMA is RUP in Florida? The new MSMA SG (Soluble Granule) is about $65.00 for 40lbs or $.10 per oz.
    At 1.2 oz/M = $.12/1000 or only $5.23 per acre!
    I've been using & selling MSMA for almost 20 years now & still marvel at how it stubbornly will not go away. Perhaps its because there isn't a single product registered anywhere for use on turf that costs so little. Then again, I sell alot of Per. Rye grass seed to repair the damage it causes.
    Baking soda is cheap to, but whats the rate?
    I'd love to see the look on the local pesticide comish when he finds out my customers are using an unregistered spray (food or not) & charging for it. Illegal here, even if its food. Steve
  9. General Grounds

    General Grounds LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 902

    :blob4: :blob4: i've NEVER bought a super trimec that killed crabgrass, plus maybe, and thats w/ 2 apps. thuogh eexpensive, ACCLAIM has been awesome, 2-3 days crabgrass is turning red. I tank mix the acclaim at .75 oz per gallon, w/1 0z. momentum from lesco and tha results have been great, with no turf injury. I get best of both world crabgrass and broadleaf weeds. any ?'s feel free to email.

    P.S. i thought it was just me but i never saw so much crabgrass before, mostly the "hot" spots of a lawn. T
  10. lakegastonla

    lakegastonla LawnSite Senior Member
    Messages: 296

    2000 Posts and he (Stone) is STILL a bunghole! Some people just love to hear themselves talk. I know old ladies who can identify crabgrass, and they do not constantly pat themselves on the back and claim to be "lawn professionals". Lame-O. Wrong as hell and still can't admit it.

Share This Page