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Besy Fungicide for Curative of Pythium Blight?

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Whitey4

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Already identified, and told home owner about afternoon watering, but I've gotten dome contradicting info on what fungicide would be best. Heritage? Signature? Bayer Armada? I've seen each of these listed as preventaives, and with varying curative performance reports. Wading throuh all the info has left me confused and with no clear idea of which control is best as a curative.

As a side note.... I had some trouble deciding if this was Summer patch or brown patch at first, or pythium blight.... this is my first year in the pesticide biz.... and still plenty to learn. Is there a good tank mix for a shotgun fungicide app? I've read Bayelton and Signiture are labeled for a tank mix.... anyone try this? Effectiveness for a "kill all" fungicide approach?

Any feedback MOST appreciated!
 
#2 ·
the problem with fungicide is PRICE.
IT takes three times as much app to CURE as prevent AND an application to prevent is crazy expensive.
They key term here is economic threshold.

How much area is infested?

Also where is the Pythium, and what caused it. It's pointless to cure and not solve the cause.

Pythium can be ferted out with heavy nitrogen cut cosntantly (twice per week) and then simply resod the damaged dead area.

Alot depends on the SIZE of the affected area.

If I was going to treat Id use bayleton
 
#4 ·
I have come across many mistreated lawns in my 16+ years in the business. Overwatered and uderfertilized, not too mention mowed too high so the thatch builds up around 3". To save the lawn now, I use 3336, max label rate, Insignia or Heritage, and Subdue. This is applied with 1/2 lb N and 1/4 lb K. I do not use this toxic martini for routine lawn care. It is only to save a lawn about to check out. Thereafter, the lawn is put on a correct watering program, verticut, regularly fertilized and mowed at the proper height. It is very rare that I am ever applying any kind of fungicides to a lawn on my maintenance program. Healthy, vigorous turf resists diseases.
 
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#5 ·
Before anyone says anything about the cost of that mix, zoysia sod is $3250 per M, st augustine and bermuda is $2750 and centipede is $5000 here. If a lawn dies here it is not a matter of raking in some seed and letting it grow. If disease happens on my watch, I eat the cost of the fungicide. If a client not on my program calls for a one time treament, it is $75 per M. Which is still cheaper than new grass.
 
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#6 ·
Scotts fungicide V with the active ingrdient of Chloroneb is the most economical treatment at approximately $125 CDN a bag. The treament is only good for about 7 days but will stop it dead in its tracks.

I would not be fertilizing the area. Pythium attacks areas High in N.

If the affected area is young seed straight humidity can be enough to set the disease off in the form of Damping off.

If it is an established lawn you have either received regular nightly rains or have poor watering practices.

Three biggest factors affecting Pythium development; 1. Leaf wetness
2. Lack of air circulation 3. High N
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
This is a new customer, new lawn. I applied Lebanon 20-4-10 with .29% Barricade at 1lb per k April 12, and the second fert was Lebanon 25-2-5 Mesa with Iron at 1 lb per k around May 28. I don't think lack of N caused the problem. The customer had been watering at 4pm every other day putting down about 1 inch each time he watered.

I'm not about to eat a fungicide application for no charge under these circumstances. I mowed at 2.5" until June 1, then raised the cut to 3". I see nothing here that I did to create the problem.... if anything, it could be argued I put down too much N already. I cut my July fert down to 1/2lb per k of N as opposed to the full 1lb of N I use in my first two apps.

The infection started in two spots which get partial shade, but not much. Perfectly round dead spots, one 6", another about 4" two feet away. Complete kill of the turf. This stand of turf is isolated by sidewalks.... it's about 110 sq ft. I used my 21" mower on it, and the WB on the rest of the lawn to try to reduce the risk of spread.

So, I've counseled the home owner on am waterings, (as opposed to the early pm watering schedule he was using), done what I could to prevent spread, but now need a curative. Bayelton is not labeled for pythium blight, but I know many controls may not be labeled for a specific fungus but will offer some control none the less.

Az.... I will look into Banrot.... never heard of it before. I can of course throw more N at it.... but with 2 lbs down already, I doubt lack of N caused the infection.

Thanks for the feedback.... but I will NOT treat this for free thinking it was somehow a fault of my own.... chit happens, and when it does, and it's not my fault, I aint gonna swallow the egg!
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
golfguy said:
Bayleton is a DMI - It will not control pythium.

If you do not like the Fungicide V granular application switch into the Subdue at 1oz / 1000. It is by fat the cadillac.
Click to expand...
I'm a newly legal certified tech in my first year.... and I don't like or dislike any fungicide yet.... I am not experienced enough to have an opinion, so I asked for opinions here. I take it you suggest the Subdue? I WILL charge for the app.... no freebie on this one. My concern is, will it work? If I can garantee the app, I can sell it. Would you garantee that a Subdue app will be a one time curative? Might a second app be needed?

I'm not challenging anyone here.... just trying to get a feel for the effectiveness of the suggested curative apps some may have used.... and I also read that Bayelton won't work here, but that a Bayelton/Signature mix might make for a "broad spectrum" fungicidal control that might work on many fungi infections, a sort of "catch all" of type.... but it doesnt appear to cover all the bases.... pythium apparently needs a very targeted fungicide app.
 
#10 ·
New lawn and hes watering at 4pm. The 4 pm is the number cause right there.
It's totally the wrong time to water, have him change the clock to 4 am.

That much water sitting over night with that much regularity is inviting disease.
 
#11 ·
Whitey4 said:
This is a new customer, new lawn. I applied Lebanon 20-4-10 with .29% Barricade at 1lb per k April 12, and the second fert was Lebanon 25-2-5 Mesa with Iron at 1 lb per k around May 28. I don't think lack of N caused the problem. The customer had been watering at 4pm every other day putting down about 1 inch each time he watered.

I'm not about to eat a fungicide application for no charge under these circumstances. I mowed at 2.5" until June 1, then raised the cut to 3". I see nothing here that I did to create the problem.... if anything, it could be argued I put down too much N already. I cut my July fert down to 1/2lb per k of N as opposed to the full 1lb of N I use in my first two apps.

The infection started in two spots which get partial shade, but not much. Perfectly round dead spots, one 6", another about 4" two feet away. Complete kill of the turf. This stand of turf is isolated by sidewalks.... it's about 110 sq ft. I used my 21" mower on it, and the WB on the rest of the lawn to try to reduce the risk of spread.

So, I've counseled the home owner on am waterings, (as opposed to the early pm watering schedule he was using), done what I could to prevent spread, but now need a curative. Bayelton is not labeled for pythium blight, but I know many controls may not be labeled for a specific fungus but will offer some control none the less.

Az.... I will look into Banrot.... never heard of it before. I can of course throw more N at it.... but with 2 lbs down already, I doubt lack of N caused the infection.

Thanks for the feedback.... but I will NOT treat this for free thinking it was somehow a fault of my own.... chit happens, and when it does, and it's not my fault, I aint gonna swallow the egg!
Click to expand...
disease problems are mostly weather related, you cant control the weather, how could you eat a fungicide app. I charge for them every timee.
 
#12 ·
there are two basic ways of charging a customer for service
#1) by the application and
#2) full contract service,the customer pays for a RESULT, not per application.

So for example lets say I sold a 4 step program to a client. The client is paying for a result, a green, weed free healthy lawn.
You may onlydo 4 apps if say you did a pre-emergent mixed with fert or a broadleaf mixed with fert, Or you may need to do 5, or maybe you do some back pack spraying for broadleaf three times but the customer pays th same prices, because the are buying results, not labor or material.

If you are managing everything from cut, to watering to fert you might save on cuts but spend more in fungicide or decide to apply only 8-24-12 instead of 24-8-3 because you want to drop the N and give you a break on excess grass clippings.

This creates a "mad-scientist" approahto lawn care the first few years as every clients property is a little different, but you are being paid to manage it and give results, not to bean them for every little thing, frequent bill adjustments will give the customer the impression you are incompetent.

In this case it is best to "eat" the fung app rather than seekingthe extra 80 bucks for it. This type of customer is billed on a levelized payment program (meaning same price every month) like a car payment.

If you dont do the app, the lawn has your name on it and will look like junk, if you DO bill for it the customer wants to know why you didnt manage the property well enough so it didnt get a fungus.

Catch 22.

Better in that case to eat the app, of course this customer is probably paying out 400 to 600 bucks each month. So there is a wee bit of room in the budget for "creative" management
 
#13 ·
TPendagast said:
there are two basic ways of charging a customer for service
#1) by the application and
#2) full contract service,the customer pays for a RESULT, not per application.

So for example lets say I sold a 4 step program to a client. The client is paying for a result, a green, weed free healthy lawn.
You may onlydo 4 apps if say you did a pre-emergent mixed with fert or a broadleaf mixed with fert, Or you may need to do 5, or maybe you do some back pack spraying for broadleaf three times but the customer pays th same prices, because the are buying results, not labor or material.

If you are managing everything from cut, to watering to fert you might save on cuts but spend more in fungicide or decide to apply only 8-24-12 instead of 24-8-3 because you want to drop the N and give you a break on excess grass clippings.

This creates a "mad-scientist" approahto lawn care the first few years as every clients property is a little different, but you are being paid to manage it and give results, not to bean them for every little thing, frequent bill adjustments will give the customer the impression you are incompetent.

In this case it is best to "eat" the fung app rather than seekingthe extra 80 bucks for it. This type of customer is billed on a levelized payment program (meaning same price every month) like a car payment.

If you dont do the app, the lawn has your name on it and will look like junk, if you DO bill for it the customer wants to know why you didnt manage the property well enough so it didnt get a fungus.

Catch 22.

Better in that case to eat the app, of course this customer is probably paying out 400 to 600 bucks each month. So there is a wee bit of room in the budget for "creative" management
Click to expand...
This is the only way I work. The client pays for a result for a fixed monthly fee, set on an annual basis. The fee is based on some "What ifs". Disease or insect problems are included. All of my clients appreciate the fact that I set one price, stick to it and never hit them for more money. The only things I charge extra for is sprinkler heads or other irrigation items. That is spelled out on the contract every client signs prior to my starting service.

Whitey4, you operate your business in a way very similar to mine. If I client will not irrigate or mow a lawn according to what is best for it, I fire them. I take responsibilty for things under my control, however sabotage of my efforts to provide a healthy lawn will not be tolerated. There are times when the weather here fosters disease development, that is no one's fault. I understand. Some of my clients have disease prone lawns due to microclimate of the property and type of grass, in that case fungicide applications are factored into the price. I do not consider myself a landscaper, or even a fert a nd squirt. I am a landscape health manager. I will spend an hour or two examining a property with the prospective client before deciding how much it will cost or even if I want the job. There is quite a bit that I find out from the start talking their ears off. It is rare that I am stuck with a PITA or a lawn care surprise that is over my head.
 
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#14 ·
Az Gardener said:
Subue as a preventative, Banrot as a contact killer.
Click to expand...
Banrot is good for shrubs and trees with soilborne diseases. I have never seen a label for turf applications.
 
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#15 ·
I have used 4 flowable Mancozeb in the past. But that is b/c I already have it on the shelf for my tree care. It works well. Label states in may need to be reapplied in 5 days. But at the rate of 12.8 oz per k it works out to be under $3.00 per k which is pretty affordable if you ask me.

If a customer is on a 4-6 step program I specifically exclude fungicides. Therefore, it is a billable service, and at a premium.

If a customer is on a monthly payment plan, I figure everything in and they get the 'dont worry about it' management plan. That is, if it happens I take care of it, no additional charge.
 
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Discussion starter · #16 ·
greendoctor said:
This is the only way I work. The client pays for a result for a fixed monthly fee, set on an annual basis. The fee is based on some "What ifs". Disease or insect problems are included. All of my clients appreciate the fact that I set one price, stick to it and never hit them for more money. The only things I charge extra for is sprinkler heads or other irrigation items. That is spelled out on the contract every client signs prior to my starting service.

Whitey4, you operate your business in a way very similar to mine. If I client will not irrigate or mow a lawn according to what is best for it, I fire them. I take responsibilty for things under my control, however sabotage of my efforts to provide a healthy lawn will not be tolerated. There are times when the weather here fosters disease development, that is no one's fault. I understand. Some of my clients have disease prone lawns due to microclimate of the property and type of grass, in that case fungicide applications are factored into the price. I do not consider myself a landscaper, or even a fert a nd squirt. I am a landscape health manager. I will spend an hour or two examining a property with the prospective client before deciding how much it will cost or even if I want the job. There is quite a bit that I find out from the start talking their ears off. It is rare that I am stuck with a PITA or a lawn care surprise that is over my head.
Click to expand...
Understand this is my first "real year" of being both a legit LCO and a certified pesticide tech. I put together a program for most accounts that includes 5 fert apps, two broadleaf controls, a July spot spray with Roundup pro and mow and blows. I made it very clear that any insectide or fungicide apps would be billed seperately when, and IF needed.

Next year, maybe I should think about including a preventative fungucide app, but I won't eat this curative... NO WAY. I as a start up, am already on the low end of the pricing structure, but not so low as to be considered a low baller. Having said that, as I am building my biz, I am not about to fire a good customer that goes for annual flat installs, mulching and other extras. It's as MUCH about income as it is anything else.

On other words, I am at least a year or two away from cherry picking my accounts. This is a valuable learning experience for me as well. The customer has agreed to do fewer waterings and in the am.

My biz plan also calls for me to be a IPM property manager, total control over everything, but of course the irrigation shedule. There is a real issue here with that, as even the (newer) irrigation controllers only allow for every other day scheduling. I have tried to get some customers to replace their controllers on the net, from out of state to allow for a 3 day shedule, despite the stupid even/odd numbered day irrigation laws we have now. This customer uses a manual sprinkler system, so he can change it up easilly.

BTW.... I was mistaken.... my first two fert apps were 3/4lb of N per k. No way too much N or not enough caused the problem. This was clearly an irrigation caused problem, and as a start up, I flat out refuse to do any free apps.... I don't have the sort of profits for that luxury. My properties are also small.... 2 to 4k of turf, and my apps all run between 36 and 55 bucks, depending.This would be a $40 app, in line with my other app prices for this property. Keep in mind, even at $40, I lose money as the control material will cost me more than that. Sure, I will then have some stock on hand for a future app, but it will still be a negative on the balance sheet until I use more of whatever control I purchase for a curative. Do it for free? NO flyin WAY! payup

Thanks for the replies.... you folks have been very helpful.
 
#17 ·
My impression of pythium: Symptoms are flat greasy spots. Most common in newly seeded lawns. Most common where there is excess water and poor drainage. Most common when the temperature is rather high--90 in days 80 at night. Strikes so fast--damage is done before you notice the disease. Usually too late to treat. Cut back on the water, improve drainage. Reseed when weather conditions cool off.

I hope you have good luck.
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
RigglePLC said:
My impression of pythium: Symptoms are flat greasy spots. Most common in newly seeded lawns. Most common where there is excess water and poor drainage. Most common when the temperature is rather high--90 in days 80 at night. Strikes so fast--damage is done before you notice the disease. Usually too late to treat. Cut back on the water, improve drainage. Reseed when weather conditions cool off.

I hope you have good luck.
Click to expand...
Riggs, solid advice. This wasn't newly seeded lawn.... just my fIrst year treating it. We had a major heat wave last weekend, into Mon and Tues..... so we had those temps. The drainage here seems fine. These dead spots sure are dead.... complete kill on the affected circular areas.

Would digging it out now be a wise move? Or would that somehow ecourage the spread?
 
#19 ·
This echoes what I said originally,
Yes, ReSOD (which means digging it out)
Pythium isnt leoprossy, but just make sure you dont cut up the sod and say leave it laying in some good grass while your working for the day.
I would treat the area with bayleton AFTER your resod to make sure there inst any back, not as a cure but as a prevenetive.
Dont treat the whole lawn (as I said fungicide is pricey) just the general surrounding area.
Likely this pythium was caused by the method of watering combined with your hot spell. Never let any of your customers water between noon and midnight (at least not the turf, you can run the drip then) The best time to water is between 4 am and 9 am. This is because you dont want the grass blades to stay wet or sitting in water that long and if you water in the middle of the day there is more evaporation than water actually soaking into the root system where it belongs.

IF you can upgrade cloks with customers, go with an ET enabled clock/system a littlemore work off hand (but you can charge for this) AND you'll never see this problem again (if the Et iscorrectly entered/programmed)
 
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