That's what I'm wondering?
How many cfm needed for residential blowouts?
grass disaster
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serious? a residential usually takes me 40 min or so. 5-7 zones.
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With a 185 cfm 3 zones at once for 2 min= 4 min. Leaves six min to stretch and rewind the hose
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wow i'm doing something wrong. how do you even fire all 3 zones at once?
i just flip each one on manually, via the control box.
Each zone should take roughly 2-3 minutes average on a typical residential system. That's for a 1" system. If you have a 1.5" or 2" system then it takes a little longer, but 40 minutes for a blowout (without repairs) is a long time. Our average blowout takes about 20 minutes by the time you pull up, hook up, blowout, and unhook. I personally don't blowout multiple zones at a time, but I believe they do it with RainMaster remotes and hooking onto the zone wires with alligator clips (multiple clips, obviously). You would have to have access to the physical controller to my understanding? The other option is you can manually open multiple valves but you have to know where they are in order to do that.
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Bleeder screws, and I built an alligator clip rig to do multiple zones from controller.
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O
Looks like good deal. I have $1250 into mine.
Yeah that's a solid deal for that compressor if it actually does run well. Compressors are expensive, we paid $9k a piece for each of our 90 CFM IR Diesels. Very low hours and have been meticulously maintained. We paid $2,350 for a MultiQuip 185 diesel and have had multiple problems with it. Sometimes it runs, sometimes it doesn't, been in and out of the shop 3 or 4 times
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With the Rain Master remote, yes, we could blow multiple zones, but never did. Too many don't realize winterize is a perfect time to look for leaks, wiper seal problems, etc. We walked each zone during blow-out.
Winter work, after all! The pic is a 185 that I rented just for this site,: 2" main all over the place, monster zones. The blow took four guys, two to do the "walk", a third to tend the compressor, and me to follow behind with flags and a clipboard. There were three POCs, it took us all morning.
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Winter work, after all! The pic is a 185 that I rented just for this site,: 2" main all over the place, monster zones. The blow took four guys, two to do the "walk", a third to tend the compressor, and me to follow behind with flags and a clipboard. There were three POCs, it took us all morning.
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52,388 Posts
The diagnostic aspect of winterizings is where a smaller 20+ cfm compressor has a place, at least for residentials fed from nothing larger than a one-inch meter, running them one zone at a time.
In snowy land there is no such thing as winter work.
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4,763 Posts
A usually blow out 12 to 15 a day . 40 minutes is way too long for 5 to 7 zones .
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Residential where there's 4-7 heads per zone should be a couple minutes with the proper sized compressor. We have a lot of installers around here that don't do check valves because they'll slope the zones slightly and will use a drain at the end of the zones to drain the system for winterizing. I hate this approach because so much water gets wasted.
Commercial properties with 1 1/2 and 2" valves you're looking at 4-6 minutes per zone, depending on terrain, location of zone in relation to mainline, and zone size. Usually the head that is lowest or furthest out is easy to spot right away and I switch to the next zone based on that head. Remember: totally dry is NOT good.
Commercial properties with 1 1/2 and 2" valves you're looking at 4-6 minutes per zone, depending on terrain, location of zone in relation to mainline, and zone size. Usually the head that is lowest or furthest out is easy to spot right away and I switch to the next zone based on that head. Remember: totally dry is NOT good.
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Early on, I encountered brass "auto drains", seemed like a good idea until they jammed either open or closed, not to mention the above mentioned water waste.
185 for me when doing just about anything other than the golf course.
Just set the pressure to around 45 and let the volume do the work. I'll try to do 4 to 6 average home systems in an hr. The key is scheduling everything in the same development and in numerical order when they're on the same street.
And I agree, never blow out completely dry. It works the gear drives over and the poc can get pretty hot when you sit there too long. Really, a pipe or head would have to have a lot of water left in it to freeze.
Light mist is where I call it good. Never have had a freeze issue doing that.
Just set the pressure to around 45 and let the volume do the work. I'll try to do 4 to 6 average home systems in an hr. The key is scheduling everything in the same development and in numerical order when they're on the same street.
And I agree, never blow out completely dry. It works the gear drives over and the poc can get pretty hot when you sit there too long. Really, a pipe or head would have to have a lot of water left in it to freeze.
Light mist is where I call it good. Never have had a freeze issue doing that.
We do about 15-30 depending on routing each day with the 24-30cfm units. Per tech, with 3 of those and a 185 for comm.
I've seen a few of these. Actually was replacing a backflow the other day that had one close and was a dribbler, took it out and in goes plug. Similar setup, work on a well system done by a HO "genius" aka complicated dumbazz (he committed suicide), he designed the system to auto drain each time it shuts off. Can take a while to recharge the mains and shut off the valves.
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I could shoot for more , but I pick up the kids after school . I am done at 3 pm
Man.. what an awesome description for selling something for 1k.... ' Hey guys this is what I got.. It's good.. 1k...'
Anyways we own 1 - 125 and 1 - 185.. Rent out 4-5 more for the winterizing season .. Typically 185's and some 92's.. Whatever's available. Peak season runs almost 2 months straight with 120-140 jobs a day for the company but we winterize for about 3.5 months.
An average day for us (Techs) is 19-20 jobs a day. That's 30 min schedule per job + a lunch. 15-30 zoner residential systems get an hour. Most commericals are an hour scheduled.. Unless your a solo op looking to get done as fast as you can..... YOUR TECH MORAL WILL DROP IF YOU SCHEDULE 15 MIN JOBS.. Or below the allotted time necessary for the job... basically their saying Ef u boss to themselves and then they have a bad day because your boss 'wants to maximize effiency'. Here where I live.. working in constant rain in the winter @ 42 degrees everyday is tiresome.... So please don't schedule your guys less then 30 minutes per job even if the job takes less then that.
I personally think it's important to look at the system while winterizing... Your MAX profit shouldn't be at the gain of lazy work.. Taking a step back and providing QUALITY OVER QUANTIY work ....Even when I kick 3 zones on at once from the controller wiring or valves.. Ill still walk around and by the time I'm done hey 5-6 min went by .. ensuring that all zones had a GREAT 'blow job' .. I'll double up neighbors and throw each system on at 2-3 min each.. I'll walk back and forth to each property ensuring it's all blown out and if it isn't I'll go back to the zone at the end.
1) It's important to provide an explanation to the homeowner of what we are doing and why it's important. You want your customer feeling comfortable that you are there to protect their system . Not to force fear into them that ' If you don't do it .. it will break! ' This also falls in the line of the customer saying ' Wow.. That was quick'... or ' That's it?' Sometimes you need to slow it down simply to make the customer happy... Because ultimately if they aren't happy they don't need you as a service.. So keeping them happy ( Not saying customers are right At All ) is essentially our jobs. Even though you specialize in something.. You are basically an oversized adultsitter..
2) I believe it's important to walk around.. Sure it's easy to turn on a 2 min Test and go back to the truck and hop on the phone.. Or find the 4 zone manifold on the right side of the house... How do you know you got all the water out of the zone with out walking all around? What about that 5Q Nozzle 50' down from what you think is the last head UP HILL .. Now you have several gallons of water falling back down to the valve .. Yet you are telling the customer everything is blown out.. Simply put we don't know because We Can't See into The Pipes... Particularly Sam / Sam PRS's
3) Checking out the system provides high opportunity for future work. The customer doesn't have to pick you up 5 months later in the spring... So informing them.. Documenting issues for them and stating a spring time activation can fix these issues gives the customer a good reason to call you back.
-You should of course keep your PSI low and utilize volume. Systems often don't have Quick Couplers.. A Quick 2 sec blow out or hand pump can winterize your back flow and hooking up to # 4 on DC's/ RPS or #2 on PVBS/ SVBS to winterize the rest of the system.. Recommend a QC after for next year or however you want to policy it up .. Require it prior to winterize ect...
- Try not to pressurize the ML with air without any zones running especially an empty ML.. The mechanics of air is 100% different to water and may blow apart a joint that water wouldn't have otherwise.
All valves are different.. Remember none of these valves were designed for AIR.. However the concept is the roughly the same because of the pressure and volume.. Some valves take a long time to open and don't react to air well .. Some valves take a long time to close
Anyways we own 1 - 125 and 1 - 185.. Rent out 4-5 more for the winterizing season .. Typically 185's and some 92's.. Whatever's available. Peak season runs almost 2 months straight with 120-140 jobs a day for the company but we winterize for about 3.5 months.
An average day for us (Techs) is 19-20 jobs a day. That's 30 min schedule per job + a lunch. 15-30 zoner residential systems get an hour. Most commericals are an hour scheduled.. Unless your a solo op looking to get done as fast as you can..... YOUR TECH MORAL WILL DROP IF YOU SCHEDULE 15 MIN JOBS.. Or below the allotted time necessary for the job... basically their saying Ef u boss to themselves and then they have a bad day because your boss 'wants to maximize effiency'. Here where I live.. working in constant rain in the winter @ 42 degrees everyday is tiresome.... So please don't schedule your guys less then 30 minutes per job even if the job takes less then that.
I personally think it's important to look at the system while winterizing... Your MAX profit shouldn't be at the gain of lazy work.. Taking a step back and providing QUALITY OVER QUANTIY work ....Even when I kick 3 zones on at once from the controller wiring or valves.. Ill still walk around and by the time I'm done hey 5-6 min went by .. ensuring that all zones had a GREAT 'blow job' .. I'll double up neighbors and throw each system on at 2-3 min each.. I'll walk back and forth to each property ensuring it's all blown out and if it isn't I'll go back to the zone at the end.
1) It's important to provide an explanation to the homeowner of what we are doing and why it's important. You want your customer feeling comfortable that you are there to protect their system . Not to force fear into them that ' If you don't do it .. it will break! ' This also falls in the line of the customer saying ' Wow.. That was quick'... or ' That's it?' Sometimes you need to slow it down simply to make the customer happy... Because ultimately if they aren't happy they don't need you as a service.. So keeping them happy ( Not saying customers are right At All ) is essentially our jobs. Even though you specialize in something.. You are basically an oversized adultsitter..
2) I believe it's important to walk around.. Sure it's easy to turn on a 2 min Test and go back to the truck and hop on the phone.. Or find the 4 zone manifold on the right side of the house... How do you know you got all the water out of the zone with out walking all around? What about that 5Q Nozzle 50' down from what you think is the last head UP HILL .. Now you have several gallons of water falling back down to the valve .. Yet you are telling the customer everything is blown out.. Simply put we don't know because We Can't See into The Pipes... Particularly Sam / Sam PRS's
3) Checking out the system provides high opportunity for future work. The customer doesn't have to pick you up 5 months later in the spring... So informing them.. Documenting issues for them and stating a spring time activation can fix these issues gives the customer a good reason to call you back.
-You should of course keep your PSI low and utilize volume. Systems often don't have Quick Couplers.. A Quick 2 sec blow out or hand pump can winterize your back flow and hooking up to # 4 on DC's/ RPS or #2 on PVBS/ SVBS to winterize the rest of the system.. Recommend a QC after for next year or however you want to policy it up .. Require it prior to winterize ect...
- Try not to pressurize the ML with air without any zones running especially an empty ML.. The mechanics of air is 100% different to water and may blow apart a joint that water wouldn't have otherwise.
All valves are different.. Remember none of these valves were designed for AIR.. However the concept is the roughly the same because of the pressure and volume.. Some valves take a long time to open and don't react to air well .. Some valves take a long time to close
I would completely agree about not overworking your employees with an unreasonable schedule.
My "real" job is not a landscape / maintenance business. I just do it on the side for a few days a year by myself. So I only have myself to complain to about scheduling.
Really, it all started because of helping some friends and family out with winterizing. Then referrals from friends came in and before I knew it we had just over 100 people wanting blowouts. So I squeeze it in over a couple weekends.
What I've noticed over the years watching and looking at other people's work is there is a huge variability in how blowouts are completed. Considering that in order to perform a blowout, a compressed air source must be connected to a cross connection, I actually find it baffling that literally anyone can do it. In fact, I think that in order to put in an irrigation system, winterize or service an irrigation system, you should have to have a certification and licensing just because of the fact that you have the potential to contaminate potable water.
Plumbers need to be licensed to work on the plumbing of the house. Why should landscape irrigation be different? I know some states require a licensed plumber to make the irrigation connection and install a backflow device, but that's not every state.
What if there is no blow out port? I believe some of the backflow manufacturers don't like the idea of hooking up to their device to blow out. And which port if you did? Worse, what if the blow out port was installed before the backflow device? Do you in good conscience still use it? How do you know the stop and waste isn't leaking air back into the cross connection if you did hook up in the wrong spot? Is there even a backflow device?
These are just a few questions that concern me about anyone (including myself) just going out and doing this.
There really should be structured training beyond the "I've done it this way and it's worked for me" method. Really, the ultimate would be if the cross connection and backflow device aren't properly installed in the first place, the winterizing shouldn't even take place until its first fixed. Or the system is physically disconnected from the water supply.
My "real" job is not a landscape / maintenance business. I just do it on the side for a few days a year by myself. So I only have myself to complain to about scheduling.
Really, it all started because of helping some friends and family out with winterizing. Then referrals from friends came in and before I knew it we had just over 100 people wanting blowouts. So I squeeze it in over a couple weekends.
What I've noticed over the years watching and looking at other people's work is there is a huge variability in how blowouts are completed. Considering that in order to perform a blowout, a compressed air source must be connected to a cross connection, I actually find it baffling that literally anyone can do it. In fact, I think that in order to put in an irrigation system, winterize or service an irrigation system, you should have to have a certification and licensing just because of the fact that you have the potential to contaminate potable water.
Plumbers need to be licensed to work on the plumbing of the house. Why should landscape irrigation be different? I know some states require a licensed plumber to make the irrigation connection and install a backflow device, but that's not every state.
What if there is no blow out port? I believe some of the backflow manufacturers don't like the idea of hooking up to their device to blow out. And which port if you did? Worse, what if the blow out port was installed before the backflow device? Do you in good conscience still use it? How do you know the stop and waste isn't leaking air back into the cross connection if you did hook up in the wrong spot? Is there even a backflow device?
These are just a few questions that concern me about anyone (including myself) just going out and doing this.
There really should be structured training beyond the "I've done it this way and it's worked for me" method. Really, the ultimate would be if the cross connection and backflow device aren't properly installed in the first place, the winterizing shouldn't even take place until its first fixed. Or the system is physically disconnected from the water supply.
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24,084 Posts
We were licensed backflow testers and the plumbing lobby thought they should be the ones to install outdoors. We fought it, and made a deal with them:"Plumbers inside, sprinkler guys outside." Plumbers hate getting dirty, anyway. The chance of warping/melting the checks and retainers is right up there with too much air. We used a simple bike pump, all you need is 7psi. All our installs had a RB 33DLRC quick couple valve down stream of the assembly. Brass swing joint and brass tee to absorb the heat
Seems obvious, but amazing how it is not code, especially up north.
Seems obvious, but amazing how it is not code, especially up north.
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