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Best Compact Tractor for Lawn and Pasture Maintenance?

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#41 ·
Greenie said:
Hope this helps.....
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It doesn't help me any. It is against the law to back feed into the power grid. A breaker cannot guarantee complete disconnect from the main line. If even some voltage escapes, that transformer is going to step it up beyond what the lineman can handle if he comes into contact with it. Like I said, in my state, you can't use the main breaker as a disconnect from the line. It is required to be a DPDT switch. Laws in your state may vary. Your local electric cooperative can tell you. I strongly suggest you check with them to see if using the main as the disconnect is allowed. If it isn't and you get caught, it's on you.

We had a big storm years ago and power was out for days in the dead of winter. Had to help dad get a gen set hooked up and going and he was going to use the main as a disconnect. He had a 200 amp main at the pole and I told him to pull the wires off the bottom of the main breaker to disconnect it. The power guys noticed his pole light was on and came by to check out his set up. They thanked him. They said if he hadn't pulled the wires out, they were supposed to pull his meter and not restore service again until a DPDT switch was installed. They also told us that in the future we could just break their tag and pull the meter off the pole instead of pulling wires. Showed us how to pull the meter. (They just pull off.) They said they had absolutely no issue coming out to put the meter back in after power was restored if it protected their guys. It is what it is. I don't make the rules man. I already knew all of this because I had dealt with it before when I had my shop and the power was out. I was running a gen set there and I pulled my main wires out knowing the law. They did in fact come by to check to see that I had a hard disconnect, which I did.
 
#42 ·
There's no such law in the state in which I reside. I'm trying to explain the impossibility of a homeowner's generator energizing a power line connected to a utility. How about some actual experience? I managed a facility that had several miles of buried 7,200 volt primary line feeding 6 transformers at various locations. The first mile of buried cable needed to be replaced during our busy season when we were fully occupied. I rented a 50kVA generator and fed into the first transformer's secondary windings. The 240 volts stepped up to 7,200 volts and fed the remaining transformers and their attached loads. It was difficult knowing exactly how to do this - even in the late 1990's. The first attempt I had the generator ground bonded to the system ground - copper wire about 1/2" in diameter. The ground wire instantly vaporized. Second attempt used ground rods instead of direct bonding and the 50kVA generator successfully powered the rest of the system... barely. Although voltage was 120/240 at the remote transformers we had to run loads like 5hp pumps individually. The utility company was onboard and jumpered out the lines they were working on. Point is I intentionally backfed into the grid and saw that... #1 a bonded ground to the generator would cause an instant loss of neutral and #2 even under controlled conditions back feeding into a primary power line even with a generator much larger than any homeowner would have was marginal. Add in other transformers with their loads (neighboring water heaters, lights, ranges and dryers) and the chances of energizing a power line to the point of endangering others down the line are like winning Powerball 4 times in a row.
 
#43 ·
Greenie said:
There's no such law in the state in which I reside. I'm trying to explain the impossibility of a homeowner's generator energizing a power line connected to a utility.
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Well then I guess my state and power company are just playing it safe.

I don't know what the possibility is, I'm not a lineman. I do understand how a transformer works, and fully understand voltage leaking by a breaker. If you've ever seen the inside, there isn't much of an air gap. It's actually pretty easy for some current to jump the gap the contacts to just slightly touch. While at the back side of that breaker it may be minimal, at the transformer, it can step up quite a bit.

There are also rules/regs/laws now regarding grounding and gen sets. I'm not up to speed on them all.


As far as an example goes, here's one. I'm on the end of the line at my house. If there is a break between me and the last house and I back fed into the system, there will be no load to draw on as no one else would be connected. It's unlikely that the voltage would be high enough to blow the fuse at my pole, even if the line is on the ground. Will it pop the fuse on my gen set? Likely so.... if the end of that line is touching the ground. But if it isn't and I back feed, now that would be dead line is hot. Very hot. If the lineman assumes that line is dead, as it should be and touches it...... well, there's good reason for those rules now isn't there? It all depends how far away that next load is. Out here it may be miles.
 
#44 · (Edited)
J. Baker said:
Well, it ought to last you forever then. You hardly use it at all. Surprised you can justify owning it for no more hours a year than you use it. Not even enough hours a year to need to change the oil.
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What an asinine post.
He is using it to help around the homestead, and it does what he needs it to do.
Justifies owning it right there .
 
#45 ·
J. Baker said:
Well then I guess my state and power company are just playing it safe.

I don't know what the possibility is, I'm not a lineman. I do understand how a transformer works, and fully understand voltage leaking by a breaker. If you've ever seen the inside, there isn't much of an air gap. It's actually pretty easy for some current to jump the gap the contacts to just slightly touch. While at the back side of that breaker it may be minimal, at the transformer, it can step up quite a bit.

There are also rules/regs/laws now regarding grounding and gen sets. I'm not up to speed on them all.


As far as an example goes, here's one. I'm on the end of the line at my house. If there is a break between me and the last house and I back fed into the system, there will be no load to draw on as no one else would be connected. It's unlikely that the voltage would be high enough to blow the fuse at my pole, even if the line is on the ground. Will it pop the fuse on my gen set? Likely so.... if the end of that line is touching the ground. But if it isn't and I back feed, now that would be dead line is hot. Very hot. If the lineman assumes that line is dead, as it should be and touches it...... well, there's good reason for those rules now isn't there? It all depends how far away that next load is. Out here it may be miles.
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I've done quite a lot of repairs on water pumps and industrial saws and wood working equipment. I took a night course and studied the National Electrical Code with the intention of getting a license. The NEC is huge and the course was way too complex to continue in - I dropped out. But I did learn the basics. Circuit breakers don't leak. When I serviced single or 3 phase equipment shutting off the circuit breaker and tagging the breaker was sufficient and at that time acceptable worksite practice - maybe that's changed. Circuit breakers are normally fail safe; if the breaker fails it always fails in an open circuit - at least that's been my experience. If circuit breakers failed in a closed circuit state there would be fires, injuries and lawsuits.
Your scenario of the end of the line may work in freakishly rare conditions although I suspect the homeowner generator ground/neutral directly bonded to the grid would instantly fail as the 1/2" diameter copper wire did when I attempted the same. It was an incredible thing to see - the 1/2" copper cable vaporized. That convinced me that in order to back feed through a pole transformer the generator could not be directly grounded to the grid. A generator run without a neutral may run 240 volt appliances but it will not light a bulb or provide 120 volts in the home. Right there is another level of protection - the homeowner can't back feed into the grid with the neutral attached and he can't power his home without the neutral attached.
Long story short is without the transfer switch a homeowner with a generator would need to have at least 3 physically impossible / extraordinarily unlikely conditions to occur; 1) a main circuit breaker that when snapped off remains closed 2) the generator not grounded by the neutral to the grid and 3) be located at the end of the line with the power company failure between the homeowner and the next line transformer (primary line broken and down).
Homeowners should have a licensed electrician install a standby generator with a transfer switch. People unfamiliar with electricity risk injury or death, ruined generators, appliances or burned wiring. Standby generators are very popular now. It's a PITA to hook up the PTO generator and make the wire connections only to have the power restored soon afterwards. I've take the time here to explain that I'm not endangering linemen or breaking laws
 
#46 ·
J. Baker said:
Not in Illinois. You have to have a hard disconnect. If our power company finds you running one without, they will shut off your power and pull the meter until you install one. It's no joke here. Maybe it's just out power companies rules, but it is required.

Edit: Automatic transfer switches are allowed too, but they are a hard disconnect.
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Please provide a link that shows that a UL listed manual interlock is not allowed in Illinois.

Here's a link that says they are legal across the US:

teamenoch.com

Why You Need a Generator Interlock and How to Install One

In this article, we'll examine one common way to have your generator feed your home with power safely during an outage by installing a generator interlock switch on your main breaker panel.
teamenoch.com teamenoch.com
.

Image
 
#47 ·
Brucey said:
Please provide a link that shows that a UL listed manual interlock is not allowed in Illinois.
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That’s going to be tough.
Illinois doesn’t have a statewide electrical code. It has some various laws, but code is determined by the power generation companies and county and local governments or elected bodies. The rules/codes vary across the state. Best I can do is link a PDF file of codes by AMEREN, the states largest electric provider. In it, it states their regulations for a standby and portable generators.

It says:

1200.05 REQUIREMENTS FOR OPEN TRANSITION
1. Any of the following methods can be used:
a) Integral transfer switch with mechanical interlocking provisions
b) Kirk key interlocked solid blade switches or circuit breakers
c) Electrically interlocked circuit breakers with backup protection via hard-wired breaker auxiliary contacts
2. Automatic transfer schemes shall include the following:
a) Voltage-sensing capability to detect the loss and recovery of the Ameren source.
b) Open transition manual “bypass” (i.e., auto disable) is highly recommended, though not required.
1200.06 REQUIREMENTS FOR CLOSED (PARALLEL) TRANSITION
1. Any of the following methods can be used:
a) Integral automatic transfer switch set
b) Two or more solid blade disconnects or circuit breakers
2. Transfer times of less than 100 milliseconds in duration.
3. Synchronizing capability to safely tie the sources together.
4. Transfer failure scheme for opening one of the sources when closed transition exceeds a maximum two (2.0) second time delay.
5. Undervoltage protection to prevent a closed transition transfer when the Ameren source is not present.
6. Open transition manual “bypass” (i.e., auto disable) is highly recommended, though not required.

Even if they would allow the metal plate interlock, there would have to be a second breaker for it to meet their code. I have never once seen an electrician or homeowner install one. Back up and portable generator set ups are extremely common here. I don’t understand why you’re being so legalistic about this. It’s a safety thing. Regardless of how safe Mr. Greenie thinks his set up is, he needs to see if it is legal or up to codes.

AMEREN PDF
 
#49 ·
Brucey said:
Ok so they do accept a mechanical interlock switch. No need to pull the meter or anything like that.
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Just telling you what I was twice told by the power company guys.

I don’t see how the interlock would be acceptable. It clearly states 2 or more blade or circuit breakers. With the interlock only one breaker is used. There would have to be a second breaker at the meter, which isn’t always the case.
 
#50 ·
Ameren is likely one of the most safety minded utilities in the world. If there's a 1 in a trillion chance of anything happening, Ameren is on it! Not really a bad thing, but I've been told from their Director of Safety (a family friend) that they are uber anal about safety.
 
#52 ·
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#53 ·
Greenie said:
It's a Winpower 15,000 generator - approximately 60 amps 120 30 amps 240 volts. I heat water with a kerosene instantaneous water heater - maybe 1 amp. Submersible water pump 6 amps (240 VAC) Two deep freezes, one refrigerator. We can run a couple of stove top burners or the oven, or the electric clothes dryer. Not everything at once, but we're comfortable. I can monitor voltage and frequency with a remote meter that plugs into any powered outlet but it's always balls on 60 hz. The tractor PTO is governed so any load applied is quickly matched with an increased engine speed. When I said it runs the "whole shebang" I meant all lights, water, water heater, freezers, refrigerator, computer, TV, stereo with careful measured use of the electric ranger and clothes dryer.
I also bought a yard sale Surge 100 Amp PTO generator built in the 1950's that the 30 HP John Deere will run identically the same load described above perfectly - but will not of course produce more than 32 amps 240 volts due to the horsepower of the tractor. I connect the generator to the home via a clothes dryer outlet after I shut down the main breaker so the lines are not energized. A common myth is that a homeowner's generator will energize the power lines in the neighborhood. While 240 V from a generator applied to a pole transformer will boost the primary line of the pole transformer to 7,200 volts - it will not run the neighborhood but instead will instantly overload the homeowner generator in milliseconds. and either trip the generator breaker or burn something out.
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How do you connect the generator to the clothes dryer outlet? Don't both of these have female connections?
 
#55 ·
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#57 ·
Crazy 4 grass said:
I'm aware of what a suicide cord is. I was just curious if this was what he is using or he has some other configuration.
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The Winpower PTO generator has a very unusual 240 volt outlet - it's on one end and a 4 prong male dryer plug is on the other end of a 20' 30 amp cord - like RVs use. Two neutrals/grounds and two 120 volt prongs. The generator has a 30 amp 240 volt breaker.
I shut off the main breaker to the utility, make the connections to the generator, start the tractor, set the RPMs to provide 120 volts and lastly turn the generator breaker on. There's never exposed power that anyone or anything can touch during the process.
There's zero chance of energizing the utility cable or transformer because of the load on the dead utility cable plus the only way I've found to intentionally back feed into a transformer is to isolate the ground and neutral. The generator would need a ground rod and only the two hot legs to back feed a transformer. The ground and neutral on the male dryer plug would instantly burn out the connection or the generator. No power would flow into the grid - not even for a second.
I can understand utilities and codes discouraging or prohibiting a connection like the one I use because if done incorrectly the homeowner, the generator, or the home can be damaged - but the chance of accidentally energizing the transformer or line out to the road is nil. Physically impossible.
 
#58 ·
So are you using a male male cord to connect the generator and dryer outlet or no?

Not trying to be obtuse, genuinely interested.
Greenie said:
The Winpower PTO generator has a very unusual 240 volt outlet - it's on one end and a 4 prong male dryer plug is on the other end of a 20' 30 amp cord - like RVs use. Two neutrals/grounds and two 120 volt prongs. The generator has a 30 amp 240 volt breaker.
I shut off the main breaker to the utility, make the connections to the generator, start the tractor, set the RPMs to provide 120 volts and lastly turn the generator breaker on. There's never exposed power that anyone or anything can touch during the process.
There's zero chance of energizing the utility cable or transformer because of the load on the dead utility cable plus the only way I've found to intentionally back feed into a transformer is to isolate the ground and neutral. The generator would need a ground rod and only the two hot legs to back feed a transformer. The ground and neutral on the male dryer plug would instantly burn out the connection or the generator. No power would flow into the grid - not even for a second.
I can understand utilities and codes discouraging or prohibiting a connection like the one I use because if done incorrectly the homeowner, the generator, or the home can be damaged - but the chance of accidentally energizing the transformer or line out to the road is nil. Physically impossible.
Click to expand...
 
#60 ·
Greenie said:
Yes. Male on both ends of the cord.
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Clearly this is a safety issue that is inadvisable to do. If the cord is plugged into the generator and comes unplugged from the dryer outlet for any reason, you have energized prongs that could kill anyone who contacts them.

You'd be far better off using a designated 240 inlet next to your electrical panel, double pole breaker and manual interlock kit.

The set up I describe costs only $100. Well worth the expense to do it right and be safe.

I suspect you knew this answer was coming, but there are many other readers out there who may not know better and we have a duty to inform them of the safe way of doing things.

If I'm missing something, I apologize in advance.
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