[zlandman]

Customers can be unrealistic in their expectations. Best lay out expectations before job and after job if customer is unhappy try to make it right with them.
I'd take a deep breath and go talk with customer a face to face can solve problems. Some customers remain irrational in which case they are your insurance companies problem. That's what you pay those big premiums for.

 

[fireball756]

I'm not sure that talking with the customer will do any good. He already filed a claim and was satisfied. The problem is his insurance company is trying to cover their loss. The best thing to do is to give it to your insurance company and let them deal with it. Don't be surprised to hear from your company that they are disappointed in you, that you attempted to solve it yourself before it got out of control.


Best of luck to you in your pursuit of perfect contract wording. It seems like there are thousands of contract lawyers out doing the same thing and adding more words to all ready wordy contracts which only leads to more confusion and more words. Lots of before pictures will be your best defense.

 

[AlohaMowing]

You can write a contract that has a clause for every possible event, no matter how unlikely or trivial. But the more trivia you put in your contract, the more the important elements are diluted. There can come a point when a contract is so full of glop that it becomes unreasonable to expect anyone actually to bother reading it. While there is a presumption that the parties to a contract read and understand what it says, any presumption can be rebutted with sufficient evidence. For example if a person in court says "no one would expect anyone actually to read that," and the jury looks at pages and pages of drivel and thinks "I certainly would never wade through all that drivel and would not expect anyone else to do so," one might find that at least portions of the contract would be unenforceable.

I personally think it is best to stick to the basics when it comes to contracts unless you know that the other person will have their attorney review the contract before they sign it. And any matters that are covered by local laws or established common law might be omitted unless there is some reason to call special attention to them.

My client had a subpar driveway, . . .
And he got a new driveway out of the deal.

This raises the issue of the proper measure of damages. Even if/when you are liable for damage caused you generally do not have an obligation to repair/replace something that is worn or damaged with something brand new. The owner of the damaged property would be entitled to have it restored to the condition it was prior to the incident causing damage. Think of this in terms of an auto accident. If you negligently collide with someone driving a beater 1985 Toyota Corolla you are not obliged to buy that person a 2021 Corolla. Rather you would be obliged to pay, at most, whatever the market value was prior to the collision. If it could be economically repaired, then the cost of repair might be owed, but, again, not the cost of a new car.

There may be an exception if the only way to cure a problem is with the complete replacement, but when a driveway had been in poor shape a simple patch should have been a satisfactory remedy. If the customer's insurance company paid the cost of a complete new driveway even under principles of subrogation you should not be liable for their generosity and some compromise should be negotiable.

There is lots of information online about calculating damages. Here is one site with unbiased information: https://damages.uslegal.com/compensatory-damages-in-property-cases/

 

[DVS Hardscaper]

Interesting how the longer I am in business, the more clauses get added to my contracts.
What continues to amaze me is that I sub contract a couple very large companies in town, concrete, fencing, electrical etc. Some of these companies have 1/2 page contracts with almost nothing in them...

I always say that a veteran contractor can be dangerous. Meaning because we have gained so much wisdom, experience, and knowledge when it comes to the business / client management aspects.

 

[DVS Hardscaper]

Can't you submit to your insurance company and they will defend you? IDK, just asking.

I will submit to my insurance. I am Not being sued. All that's happened is this subrogated collection / law firm called me wanting me to pay. I didn't know anything about it until that call came.

A phone call means nothing. Once I receive papers - then, I'll submit to my insurer.

 

[DVS Hardscaper]

This subrogated claim business, I was doing some thinking about it. It’s almost like the insurance company is abusing the subrogated claim system .

Subrogate claim is this example:

30 years ago My mother was driving her Honda Civic. Dog ran in the road and she hit it. It did $3500 damage to her car. State Farm, her insurer covered the damages. But......they filed a subrogate claim against the dog’s owner. See, that was justified.

But in my case - my client KNEW the risks. My client knew there is only one way into his backyard. He KNEW we should have heavy machinery on the property. He knew that job at hand required such machinery. He knew there were no other options for how to accomplish his needed demolition job. He agreed in writing to the terms and conditions.

When my mother hit the dog - she didn’t know a dog would run in front of her. This man, was aware of what was taking place.

It’s wrong that an insurance company would exercise their right to a subrogated claim under this context. And they do it day in and day out. Sub par driveway. In the contract I EVEN STATE THAT IMPORTED SOIL WILL BE DUMPED IN THE DRIVEWAY. I even specify in the contract that the soil will be hauled via tri-axle dump trucks! I strongly speculate that subrogate claims were not intended for such a scenario.

Too many clauses in a contract can steer prospective clients away from you.

When I mentioned clauses, please know - I do not believe clauses rule the courtroom. I know they don’t. But I do feel they can help.

I don’t think I will add any new clauses. I think I will create a property assessment report. Where I notate existing conditions of pavements, etc. before work begins. maybe in the report grade the pavement with 10 being the highest grade. And ask the client to sign the report. I already do shoot pictures (most of the time).

With the report, if another insurance company comes after me - me or my insurer can say “here is a report stating the driveway was in despair before we started the work, and the client signed the report”.

 

[zlandman]

You make too many assumptions about what customers know, they don't have your experience.

First time my wife saw lawnmower blades we argued because she thought I was trying to pull one over on here. "There's no way those would cut grass"

All those people in Texas who don't know where their water shutoff valves are. They should know but they simply don't know.

 

[DVS Hardscaper]

You make too many assumptions about what customers know, they don't have your experience.

First time my wife saw lawnmower blades we argued because she thought I was trying to pull one over on here. "There's no way those would cut grass"

All those people in Texas who don't know where their water shutoff valves are. They should know but they simply don't know.

I wouldn't say I personally make assumptions about what my clients know. Because I know darn well most clients don't know anything.

And because I'm well aware of that, as part of my contract, I have a sheet that has pictures and a caption of the equipment that will be used for their job

Started my company when I was in high school. 31 years of working in the residential market - I've acquired an entirely different way of working with residential clients. I'm very descriptive, from speaking with them, to my demolition website, to my contract. And the people that use us, usually have their mind made up they're going to go with me before they even get my quote, because of those attributes.

But yes, I agree. Most clients have no idea what will be involved along with all the logistics.

 

[TPendagast]

It doesn't cost much to saw cut out a little section of blacktop and patch it. I had to do this exact thing last year. I'm not saying your are responsible but sometimes it's just best to fix it if you break it.

No offense but, they never want that

You see they always have a perfect driveway before you come and it's the Taj Mahal of driveways so a patch won't do
They need the whole enchilada redone

Can't tell you how many times I've heard that one

I'm surprised the OP gets anyone to sign that contract in the first place.

 

[TPendagast]

I dont know. all i know is the asphalt driveway was VERY small. as in only enough to fit (2) honda accords side by side with no extra room around them. And the asphalt driveway was already in subpar condition

So about $3800-$4000 (Ish)

 

[DVS Hardscaper]

So about $3800-$4000 (Ish)

That's about what I'm thinking.

 

[DVS Hardscaper]

No offense but, they never want that

You see they always have a perfect driveway before you come and it's the Taj Mahal of driveways so a patch won't do
They need the whole enchilada redone

Can't tell you how many times I've heard that one

I'm surprised the OP gets anyone to sign that contract in the first place.

With a speciality service, if the people want the work done - they have no choice. Once in a while, we have a client or two that doesn't want the work done, but the county mandates the work be done. Regardless, it's things like this that come into play and all the more reason to hire an experienced competent professional.

We've had challenging jobs that have turned out great, and I often say to myself "this probably would not have gone as smoothly had they gone with another contractor".

By no means playing big shot on the Internet, I take a lot of pride in what we do and I'm very particular

 

[TPendagast]

With a speciality service, if the people want the work done - they have no choice. Once in a while, we have a client or two that doesn't want the work done, but the county mandates the work be done. Regardless, it's things like this that come into play and all the more reason to hire an experienced competent professional.

We've had challenging jobs that have turned out great, and I often say to myself "this probably would not have gone as smoothly had they gone with another contractor".

By no means playing big shot on the Internet, I take a lot of pride in what we do and I'm very particular

I don't think you understood what I was saying

I was responding to "cut out and patch"

That is cheap

But the customer never wants that
They expect a whole new driveway or at least it completely seal coated... in their mind it was perfect before you arrived

 

[Youngandfree]

This subrogated claim business, I was doing some thinking about it. It's almost like the insurance company is abusing the subrogated claim system .

Subrogate claim is this example:

30 years ago My mother was driving her Honda Civic. Dog ran in the road and she hit it. It did $3500 damage to her car. State Farm, her insurer covered the damages. But......they filed a subrogate claim against the dog's owner. See, that was justified.

But in my case - my client KNEW the risks. My client knew there is only one way into his backyard. He KNEW we should have heavy machinery on the property. He knew that job at hand required such machinery. He knew there were no other options for how to accomplish his needed demolition job. He agreed in writing to the terms and conditions.

When my mother hit the dog - she didn't know a

I don't think you understood what I was saying

I was responding to "cut out and patch"

That is cheap

But the customer never wants that
They expect a whole new driveway or at least it completely seal coated... in their mind it was perfect before you arrived

Sounds like they already got the new driveway in the OP.

 

[TPendagast]

That's about what I'm thinking.

Yea it's not realistic
Nor did you do the much damage by breaking a corner off
I've seen a car do that before

In reality they had a **** install job because the base should should extend beyond the actual asphalt for this very reason , so if you do roll off the edge of the asphalt it doesn't easily break and crack.

IMO
I'm the future
A damage waiver

I can give you this high price (sign here price of driveway included)
Or you can have this more reasonable price where I will reason precaution to minimize impact to your driveway for a lesser price, but by signing here you realize there is a possibility for some wear or damage to the driveway surface and by signing, you take full financial responsibility for any mishap that may (or may not) occur

You give them choices and control.

Most of the time
Driveway complaints are a result of buyers remorse
The customer is looking for ways to reduce the cost of the project or get add ons (like a new driveway) now that they have to pony up the cost for the finished project

 

[DVS Hardscaper]

One personal thought I meant to post here but forgot -

Myself and the client got along great. I enjoyed working with him. He was the type of client that good contractors dream of.

We did a top notch job for him.

We even did a couple small extras at no cost.

It is upsetting, very upsetting, that this “subrogate claim” happened.

Every contractor needs to be aware of this aspect of business.

 

[Rick1111]

Curious if you let the customer know his insurance company dinged you for the asphalt?

 

[Youngandfree]

That's not bad. I'm in a position that I will always be doing this part time, for at least 10 years. Maybe I can build a network of some guys to do work for me while I'm at my career. But I just don't see the need to spend big bucks on branding anytime soon for myself. I'd like to get a few more yards lined up this year, but cautious about spending too much marketing and not be able to do it all.

The guys talking about building a solid logo and brand are right. But you have to decide your own current priorities.

 

[DVS Hardscaper]

I received a letter from the subrogation company. They are looking for $8,562.91.

The letter states:
“An investigation into this loss reveals that you MAY be legally responsible for the damage claim amount of 8562.91”. Keyword “may”.

I have 2 mil $ liability insurance coverage.

It’s the whole principle here that really irks me.

The driveway was in bad shape.

Someone widened the driveway by like 18 to 24” on the right side. Let me tell you how they widened it, as the portion that broke - was the portion that was added on:

They left the original driveway in place. Looked like it had been repaved a time or two. And the top coat was really poor grade asphalt and poor condition.

It appeared that They basically came in with a steel nursery spade, dug out like 18-24” out from the original asphalt, and dug down no more than 4”. There was NO aggregate base. And the added on portion was just that - added on - no gravel under it to act as a shoulder. I’m not even for certain the broken asphalt was even 4-inches thick.

Because of the add-on, the driveway wasn’t not level on top. LOL - it was sorta rounded - similar to the roof of a school bus!


It was a shoddy asphalt job. Period.

I will forward the letter to my insurer. And I intend to have a long detailed chat with them. It will be in their hands. But I plan to urge my insurer to fight them, just out of principle. Although, I’m sure this is not their first claim of this nature, they know how to handle it, but it’s wrong wrong wrong.

 

[zlandman]

That's a tough one. But any time you're moving heavy materials in a residential setting there is a risk. You'd think between your mats and the disclaimer on the contract you'd be off the hook.
In the future include a quote for driveway replacement as an add option on the job and flat out say the driveway needs replacement.