I cannot answer if you want to spend the extra on the diesel mower, but I personally think it is worth it. I had a 223/52 and have a 322D/61 and the power of the deisel and the fuel consumption is a big difference than the 23 Kholer.

 

wow that was quick! didnt expect someone to have a situation so close to mine so fast.
how did you run the 223 before you went to the 322 and has the 322 given you any problem?

 

I've got 3 gh also, i started with gas a couple of years ago, i now have all diesel, trust me, its worth it. They are very smooth!!! And use a 1/3 less fuel (varies by model)

 

Hi mantrep,

I'm a big Grasshopper fan as well, I've been using 700 series frontmounts for 17 years.
I've owned three machines over that time period (I still have all three) they all have liquid-cooled Kubota engines.
The first two are gas and the newest is a 2004 722D diesel with G2 hydros and 52".

I greatly prefer the diesel, here are some reasons why:

great power/torque never bogs down in normal Florida usage
.6 gallon per hour
lower tone/more tolerable sound
much less offensive exhaust fumes
no ignition system to fail/maintain
extended oil change intervals
long engine life (my 725 is over 7,200 hours and runs as new)

Here's what I would do:

Keep your current 223 as a backup machine, run it periodically and cycle the PTO a few times to keep it in good working order.

Get the 321D or 325D (more torque but only 61" or 72") and run it for at least 5,000 most likely trouble-free hours, then put it in the backup role and get another diesel.
With good maintenance the rest of the machine should hold up fine and I think that the G2 hydros will go the distance as well.
I've currently got 3,000 hours on my all original 722D G2 and it runs/mows as new.

The last time I did the math I figured I'm saving about $1,200 in fuel costs for every 1,000 hours when compared to my liquid-cooled gas Kubota engines which average about 1 GPH,
if comparing to a comparable air-cooled engine your savings could be a lot more.

P.S. If you would consider a frontmount, you can get the 25hp diesel with a 52" and deck servicing is much easier with the powerfold option.

 

wow that was quick! didnt expect someone to have a situation so close to mine so fast.
how did you run the 223 before you went to the 322 and has the 322 given you any problem?

I sold the 223 with a little over 1000 hrs and really only a couple of minor problems. In nice St Augustine and Bermuda lawns the 223/52 would do great and has a very nice cut, but in heavily weeded areas this thing would dang near choke up and die a 2mph. The 322D/61 will go through the same weedy areas and clog up the deck but the engine keeps on chugging. I personally feel the 23hp is underpowered for the 52" deck the way that G Hoppers really chops the clippings. I think the 322 is a 2003 year model and the 223 was a 2004 year model. I do not know if you have many slopes, but if you do the diesel will hold them twice as good as the gas.

 

so it sounds like everyone is pointing to the 321D. Im good with that (i think). Anyone have pricing? Is $10500 good? If im going all in on this machine, i dont want to get screwed. It would be a brand new 2011 machine.

 

yes it looks like a good price, i always ask my dealer to get a hold of a demo unit, they are about 1200 dollars less with only 2 to 3 hours on them, and maybe a year old.

 

Have had two Grasshoppers. My take on the diesels. Had a 445 JD and then a 455 JD. The 455 was a diesel, yes it had more power but it was to heavy on the front end. Wanted the 445 back. I just think the diesels are to heavy and track the yard. And I cant see paying 10500 for a 52" mower. Why not get the 329 with the air cooled Big Block Briggs.

 

Have had two Grasshoppers. My take on the diesels. Had a 445 JD and then a 455 JD. The 455 was a diesel, yes it had more power but it was to heavy on the front end. Wanted the 445 back. I just think the diesels are to heavy and track the yard. And I cant see paying 10500 for a 52" mower. Why not get the 329 with the air cooled Big Block Briggs.

Hi South Side,
You make a valid point, the diesel is a little heavier, but not by much.

321D 52" = 1230 pounds

329B 52" = 1140 pounds

The more important differences, in my opinion, are the longevity of the engine and the gallons per hour.

Does anyone know what the GPH is on the 29hp big block?

 

I love my grasshopper. i got a 727k t6 with a 52 and it never bogs down would love to update to a diesel but yes the price difference i allot. I have owned 4 of them now definitely will not change. normally i trade mine every two years to keep them in the warranty area but have never really had any problems with any of them. gotta love the front mount with the fold up deck very easy maintenance and i can put my attachments on it. The only thing i hate and still trying to figure it out is i have problems streaking constantly sharping blades or changing to new ones if any one has got any in puts on that one it would be awsome to here from ya

 

southside brought up same point my dad and i discussed the other day. the weight.
the 321 is about 150lbs heavier and the tracking thing was considered. Dont want to lose folks because of tracking.

My business is all residential. I run about 100 single family homes. Average lot size 70x100. Most stops are 3-8 homes in a row.

 

Hi mantrep,

I'm a big Grasshopper fan as well, I've been using 700 series frontmounts for 17 years.
I've owned three machines over that time period (I still have all three) they all have liquid-cooled Kubota engines.
The first two are gas and the newest is a 2004 722D diesel with G2 hydros and 52".

I greatly prefer the diesel, here are some reasons why:

great power/torque never bogs down in normal Florida usage
.6 gallon per hour
lower tone/more tolerable sound
much less offensive exhaust fumes
no ignition system to fail/maintain
extended oil change intervals
long engine life (my 725 is over 7,200 hours and runs as new)

Here's what I would do:

Keep your current 223 as a backup machine, run it periodically and cycle the PTO a few times to keep it in good working order.

Get the 321D or 325D (more torque but only 61" or 72") and run it for at least 5,000 most likely trouble-free hours, then put it in the backup role and get another diesel.
With good maintenance the rest of the machine should hold up fine and I think that the G2 hydros will go the distance as well.
I've currently got 3,000 hours on my all original 722D G2 and it runs/mows as new.

The last time I did the math I figured I'm saving about $1,200 in fuel costs for every 1,000 hours when compared to my liquid-cooled gas Kubota engines which average about 1 GPH,
if comparing to a comparable air-cooled engine your savings could be a lot more.

P.S. If you would consider a frontmount, you can get the 25hp diesel with a 52" and deck servicing is much easier with the powerfold option.

100% agree. I have a 1994 woods/721D grasshopper with 1500 hours on it. For a 1994 it feels better put together than any new non grass hopper zero turn I have used. The ignorant popular gas engines feel like play toys compares to the diesel. Shoot the battery on my 21hp diesel is 600cca. Oil changes are every 100hrs. I can go down through the list, but bottom line your getting a mower with Kubota tractor durability. If you buy it I would keep it for 5,000 hours. If it was me I would keep it till the motor pukes. That would be over 10,000 hours it you take care of it. I love how easy it is to work on mine. If you don't get diesel, get kubota gas. You can still expect 5,000 hours on the engine.

 

Why not consider the 226V entry level commercial? Dealers in my area are selling these for around $6000 for 52" deck. I bought one and am well satisfied.

Recently, a lawn sevice 70 miles north of me, put 3 322d GrassHoppers on ebay. They had between 1200-1500 hours and they looked good. Said they were shop maintained. Open bid was $4000 and buy it now was $4500 for 61". They didn't sell on ebay and the listing is closed so there must have been a side deal or else seller is sitting on them. I've had several Kubota diesel tractors and mine were all bulletproof workhorses.

Had I not had the 226V, I'd have been all over one of these at that price. New, I'd take a $6k 226V every time versus a $12.5k 322d, for what I do. But a 12-1500 hour 322d that has been maintained for around $4k seems like a steal to me but, alas and alak, I'd already bought.

 

Why not consider the 226V entry level commercial? Dealers in my area are selling these for around $6000 for 52" deck. I bought one and am well satisfied.

Recently, a lawn sevice 70 miles north of me, put 3 322d GrassHoppers on ebay. They had between 1200-1500 hours and they looked good. Said they were shop maintained. Open bid was $4000 and buy it now was $4500 for 61". They didn't sell on ebay and the listing is closed so there must have been a side deal or else seller is sitting on them. I've had several Kubota diesel tractors and mine were all bulletproof workhorses.

Had I not had the 226V, I'd have been all over one of these at that price. New, I'd take a $6k 226V every time versus a $12.5k 322d, for what I do. But a 12-1500 hour 322d that has been maintained for around $4k seems like a steal to me but, alas and alak, I'd already bought.

you can get a (D) series used for about $3000-$6000 with about 1000-1500 hours. That is personally what I would do. I want to pick up a 72inch this summer for about $4,000

 

southside brought up same point my dad and i discussed the other day. the weight.
the 321 is about 150lbs heavier and the tracking thing was considered. Dont want to lose folks because of tracking.

My business is all residential. I run about 100 single family homes. Average lot size 70x100. Most stops are 3-8 homes in a row.

not an issue, i even run an end dump bagger on the back of one of my units, never..ever has there been an issue with tracking.

 

When I got into mowing I talked to a guy that had 104 yards. He ran all 720 Grasshoppers. I ask why. He said if it was running it was cooling and he could put anybody on them. On the diesels he said you have a wtr pp and radiator to watch. He also said when they were out of war. he could replace the engine then for a third of the diesel. He also said he could get 4 mowers in the gas for the price of three diesels. No doubt the diesel will outlast the gas but who wants a mower with 5000-10000hrs on it. And after 1500-2000hrs there isn't any difference in price because they are hard to sell with that many hrs.

 

southside brought up same point my dad and i discussed the other day. the weight.
the 321 is about 150lbs heavier and the tracking thing was considered. Dont want to lose folks because of tracking.

My business is all residential. I run about 100 single family homes. Average lot size 70x100. Most stops are 3-8 homes in a row.

Excellent discussion guys,

There's definitely different ways to look at it.

Regarding tracking/rutting though, I'm in SW Florida where the lawns are very susceptible to this and I have no problems even though I run GH frontmounts (which are even heavier).

Here is my secret:
I simply don't go in the same tracks every time, but "stagger" my passes a little to the left or right as required. It doesn't take much more time and as a result my work looks better
than most (maybe all) other LCO's in my area. In 17 years I've never had any complaints of rutting, because there isn't any.

 

Bob is right on the tracking no matter what brand you have if you drive in the same tracks they all will track bad.

 

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I have a 220(20 HP kohler w\48 deck), I cut all sorts of properties and wish it had a little more power. A 23 horse on 52 is great(brother-in-law has 1), if its bogging, something isn't right or your trying to go where only a tractor should, IMHO. I've also got a 25\52 Ferris and vastly prefer the grasshopper. I looked @ diesel, but decided it wasn't worth the added up front costs. I also run synthetic oil, so we'll see how long my engines last. I change @ 100 hrs. I have 3 vehicles with 250k + on them, so we'll see what it does on a small engine.
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i get the engine life and fuel saving aspect of the diesel and that makes me lean toward it from a financial aspect. However, i dont know squat about diesels. When my gas engine acts strange or theres a problem, i can usually fix it myself. Diesel will make me slave to the dealer (i think).

Also, my maintentance on my 223 has been basically oil, air and fuel filters. The less maintenance part of the diesel doesnt seem like a plus. or is it?

 

there is not that much to go wrong on a diesel. If something does, its major. The only things to go is the injectors, glow plugs, fuel filters and fuel pump. With Kubota I have never heard of a injector, diesel fuel pump (know the kubota gas has had problems with there pumps), or glow plug problem. Fuel filters are normal for anything.

 

Also, my maintentance on my 223 has been basically oil, air and fuel filters. The less maintenance part of the diesel doesnt seem like a plus. or is it?

I installed an Amsoil bypass oil filter and full-flow oil filter on my 722D and I can easily go 500+ hours between oil/filter changes, which is nice.

Also, one thing that was sometimes problematic on my Kubota gas engines was the ignition system, heavy rain or condensation could cause the machine not to start.
Plus, I've had several of the igniter modules fail and the cost of replacement is several hundred dollars. The diesel avoids all of that, it just starts, every time.

My maintenance for the diesel engine is as follows:

100 hours---> clean the outer air filter with a blower (carefully)

500 hours---> change oil and full-flow oil filter

1,000 hours---> fuel filters(both), air filters(both), drain and refill the coolant, change bypass filter

Changing the secondary fuel filter is a little time consuming since it's a little hard to get at, and you need to bleed the air out afterward (pretty simple though).
Be sure to change the in-line fuel filter first, then run the engine for a while before changing the one in the bowl.

No spark plugs required

 

I installed an Amsoil bypass oil filter and full-flow oil filter on my 722D and I can easily go 500+ hours between oil/filter changes, which is nice.

Also, one thing that was sometimes problematic on my Kubota gas engines was the ignition system, heavy rain or condensation could cause the machine not to start.
Plus, I've had several of the igniter modules fail and the cost of replacement is several hundred dollars. The diesel avoids all of that, it just starts, every time.

My maintenance for the diesel engine is as follows:

100 hours---> clean the outer air filter with a blower (carefully)

500 hours---> change oil and full-flow oil filter

1,000 hours---> fuel filters(both), air filters(both), drain and refill the coolant, change bypass filter

Changing the secondary fuel filter is a little time consuming since it's a little hard to get at, and you need to bleed the air out afterward (pretty simple though).
Be sure to change the in-line fuel filter first, then run the engine for a while before changing the one in the bowl.

No spark plugs required

I have had some ignition problems. I had a $150 box go out that controlled the fuel shut off. My PTO wiring died somewhere (I simplified that). Most things you can re wire a different way on the diesel. All out have to do is make the fuel shut off turn on, wire the starter, and get the battery to charge and you got a running diesel. I don't have to bleed mine. In about 20 cranks it pulls enough fuel to start.

 

Friday is the day. You all have been a HUGE help! I finally got to do a side by side comparison today and was really impressed by the 321D. NICE machine. Probably going to bite the bullet and go with it and a powervac system so i should be set up nice for a while.

Is there any way to find out what a 321D is worth when its got a few thousand hours on it? Is there a "blue book" type thing that dealers use to figure what a used mower is worth?