I could use a little help. I aerated with a Turfco xt5 in two directions. I then simply overseeded using a Lesco rotary spreader at the prescribed rate. Where I started with fresh top soil and used straw, I have grass growing. Where I just aerated and overseeded, I don't really see anything happening. The seed has been down for 2 weeks now. Does simple aeration and overseed work or do you have to do more than that to get an actual visible result?
clydesdale
, sorry but aerating isn't so much an overseeding process as it's been made out to be, wherever there's not a core hole or a plug for seed to lie against then it's basically like doing nothing and just throwing down seed, which does work but not so great, need seed to soil contact.
Aerating helps reduce thatch (when soil cores left on surface melt it makes soil meet the thatch and it helps compost the thatch) but cool season grasses besides bluegrass and zoysia don't create excess thatch normally, and some thatch is good,
plus aerating helps get the most important fall fertilizing down to the roots along with water and air creates more robust drought a disease etc tolerant roots.
Aerating is good for lawns that are already good or for something like a pure zoysia lawn that hasn't been aerated or dethatched but many zoysia lawns seem to do fine since the 80-90s I doubt some these solid zoysia lawns I've seen have even been cored or thatched.
Coring you can also topdress compost afterwards to amend poor clay/sandy soil in an already-decent lawn it gets the compost deeper than just topdressing and doesn't ruin the lawn like tilling the whole thing while adding compost.
Slice seeding is what you want, and usually not dethatching, slicer is basically a sharper dethatcher that doesn't harm existing grass as much as a flail dethatcher (a tine dethacher is a gentler spring and doesn't really affect existing turf but is good for raking out thatch if there even is excess thatch), only need 1/4" deep grooves for grass to grow, and really bad areas with no turf can run it slow and deep and basically till the top few inches of soil (or also use a tiller there and get deeper) so it's a fluffy soil bed good for seeding. But grid pattern slice seeding will get you more grass to grow than any other method besides tilling the whole thing, a LIGHT topdress with some compost/good soil after the slicing will get even more to grow. Just topdressing with no slicing or coring also works well but slicing opens up the soil giving the roots an easier chance to get down there and establish.
I used to tine (not aggressive flail) dethatch, and then core aerate, and then slice seed and then broadcast seed but yes the aeration helps but besides that I don't think there's even a need to dethatch unless it's pure bluegrass or zoysia and even then it doesn't need thatching so often. The dead grass that a tine thatcher removes from most cool season lawns is mostly just dead discarded under blades, yes removing that helps get more seed to soil contact but depends on the soil type etc, if the soil not too sandy then even without dethatching, the slices are showing pure dirt for the seed to fall into and not falling into a blend of dead grass blades, and then it gets melted over once it's watered and gets good soil contact, and then the dead grass on top helps by holding moisture for germinating like putting straw over seeds or using blue coated seeds, and since it's dead grass already brown dead it won't possibly decompose over the tiny grass sprouts and kill them.
Aerating helps reduce thatch (when soil cores left on surface melt it makes soil meet the thatch and it helps compost the thatch) but cool season grasses besides bluegrass and zoysia don't create excess thatch normally, and some thatch is good,
plus aerating helps get the most important fall fertilizing down to the roots along with water and air creates more robust drought a disease etc tolerant roots.
Aerating is good for lawns that are already good or for something like a pure zoysia lawn that hasn't been aerated or dethatched but many zoysia lawns seem to do fine since the 80-90s I doubt some these solid zoysia lawns I've seen have even been cored or thatched.
Coring you can also topdress compost afterwards to amend poor clay/sandy soil in an already-decent lawn it gets the compost deeper than just topdressing and doesn't ruin the lawn like tilling the whole thing while adding compost.
Slice seeding is what you want, and usually not dethatching, slicer is basically a sharper dethatcher that doesn't harm existing grass as much as a flail dethatcher (a tine dethacher is a gentler spring and doesn't really affect existing turf but is good for raking out thatch if there even is excess thatch), only need 1/4" deep grooves for grass to grow, and really bad areas with no turf can run it slow and deep and basically till the top few inches of soil (or also use a tiller there and get deeper) so it's a fluffy soil bed good for seeding. But grid pattern slice seeding will get you more grass to grow than any other method besides tilling the whole thing, a LIGHT topdress with some compost/good soil after the slicing will get even more to grow. Just topdressing with no slicing or coring also works well but slicing opens up the soil giving the roots an easier chance to get down there and establish.
I used to tine (not aggressive flail) dethatch, and then core aerate, and then slice seed and then broadcast seed but yes the aeration helps but besides that I don't think there's even a need to dethatch unless it's pure bluegrass or zoysia and even then it doesn't need thatching so often. The dead grass that a tine thatcher removes from most cool season lawns is mostly just dead discarded under blades, yes removing that helps get more seed to soil contact but depends on the soil type etc, if the soil not too sandy then even without dethatching, the slices are showing pure dirt for the seed to fall into and not falling into a blend of dead grass blades, and then it gets melted over once it's watered and gets good soil contact, and then the dead grass on top helps by holding moisture for germinating like putting straw over seeds or using blue coated seeds, and since it's dead grass already brown dead it won't possibly decompose over the tiny grass sprouts and kill them.
Hmm, it is KBG, RYE and Fescue. It does sound like I am a little light. I figured I was around 3lb per 1000. I have seen 2-5 for that mix. So, I can bump that up in the future, but I am not seeing a whole lot of action anywhere, except for where I put fresh soil. Makes me wonder if the aerate and overseed concept is effective for repairing. As far as timing, this week is warm enough in NY, but that changes next week. I think you have to do this in mid September and even earlier if using KBG. I use pure KBG at my personal residence in a fresh spot in mid Sept. The grass is coming in, but I doubt it will ever need mowing this season.
Sigh!
It is sad how the seed package will suggest a seeding rate that is often a huge exaggeration as to the area that the seed will actually cover. Sure, if conditions are ideal, like in a warm seed company laboratory--and if the seed has not lost any germination percentage in storage--the rate is fine. And then they suggest half as much for overseeding! Absurd!
Overseeding, results in less germination (not more) this because fewer seeds fall down into the actual soil.
I think you need double--not half as much--if you are overseeding.
A month ago I seeded about 1000 sqft With a turf type tall fescue blend with varieties Nightcrawler and Fayette and a couple more. I used 10 pounds per thousand sqft. It was not irrigated, and the preparation was a vigorous raking. After seeding, half the plot was walked on as a substitute for rolling.
Now it looks very good. I was well-satisfied.
Seeding double, not half, may seem like it costs more, but the savings in labor more than make up for it.
Of course--you have to keep in mind--it is very difficult to spot tiny new grass blades sprouting up through the old grass--nearly invisible.
It is sad how the seed package will suggest a seeding rate that is often a huge exaggeration as to the area that the seed will actually cover. Sure, if conditions are ideal, like in a warm seed company laboratory--and if the seed has not lost any germination percentage in storage--the rate is fine. And then they suggest half as much for overseeding! Absurd!
Overseeding, results in less germination (not more) this because fewer seeds fall down into the actual soil.
I think you need double--not half as much--if you are overseeding.
A month ago I seeded about 1000 sqft With a turf type tall fescue blend with varieties Nightcrawler and Fayette and a couple more. I used 10 pounds per thousand sqft. It was not irrigated, and the preparation was a vigorous raking. After seeding, half the plot was walked on as a substitute for rolling.
Now it looks very good. I was well-satisfied.
Seeding double, not half, may seem like it costs more, but the savings in labor more than make up for it.
Of course--you have to keep in mind--it is very difficult to spot tiny new grass blades sprouting up through the old grass--nearly invisible.
just for good measure if you can get decent price of bio solid or milo or purely organic lawn food for smaller lawns where organics don't become too expensive, it only helps to also add some organics, they simply grow healthier stronger lawns, and you can overlap with synthetics and not burn anything.
I'd do organic at time of seeding or before, then starter once it sprouts (KBG can take 3 weeks and synthetics can off gas by then if it's pure dirt or wash away or if it's an overseeding with existing decent lawn then that lawn will grow very fast and shade out the KBG by the time it sprouts) so I like to then teaspoon feed and water in starter every couple weeks or so it doesn't burn the fragile sprouts like one large app.
I don't think the hardest part is getting new grass to grow in 'fall', it's the HEAT and HUMIDITY of summer that causes all the problems. humic iron kelp supposedly help, organics should, not cutting too short in hot months, not leaving heavy wet clumps helps, water of course helps but need brown patch resistant cultivars (search NTEP trials for whatever culitvars you buy and see how they rank in university trial and error) otherwise too much water will grow fungi and kill.
Many lawns when hot months come are better off left alone, it doesn't grow much in summer unless there's grassy weeds like nutsedge, crab, foxtail etc, look at grass growth charts it can go a while without a cut and is much safer for the lawn when left alone or cut on highest setting if there's irrigation.
extension.umn.edu
I'd do organic at time of seeding or before, then starter once it sprouts (KBG can take 3 weeks and synthetics can off gas by then if it's pure dirt or wash away or if it's an overseeding with existing decent lawn then that lawn will grow very fast and shade out the KBG by the time it sprouts) so I like to then teaspoon feed and water in starter every couple weeks or so it doesn't burn the fragile sprouts like one large app.
I don't think the hardest part is getting new grass to grow in 'fall', it's the HEAT and HUMIDITY of summer that causes all the problems. humic iron kelp supposedly help, organics should, not cutting too short in hot months, not leaving heavy wet clumps helps, water of course helps but need brown patch resistant cultivars (search NTEP trials for whatever culitvars you buy and see how they rank in university trial and error) otherwise too much water will grow fungi and kill.
Many lawns when hot months come are better off left alone, it doesn't grow much in summer unless there's grassy weeds like nutsedge, crab, foxtail etc, look at grass growth charts it can go a while without a cut and is much safer for the lawn when left alone or cut on highest setting if there's irrigation.
Lawn care calendar
Minnesota lawns of cool season turfgrasses bear the stress of changing weather and can survive harsh winters.
Agreed. Seed rate just too low. We never use less than 5# per thousand sqft of TTTF. On thinner lawns we go atleast 8# per thousand. Quality seed and water make a difference. At the price the customer pays for this service they usually don’t mind it costing a little more for a higher seed rate to get a better result.
Remember the seed germination percentage was a few months ago. And that was under ideal conditions in a warm, moist seed laboratory. The seed loses about 2 percent a month unless in cold storage.
The industry standard for bluegrass is 13 to 27 seeds per square inch. That is about 7 pounds per thousand sqft.
Do not let the package instructions exaggerate the coverage.
Put out a bottle cap for a gallon jug and make sure you have at least 13 to 27 per bottle cap--about a square inch.
Show the customer and convince him you are more careful to give the full amount--better than any other lawn company--because you are the best.
www.sroseed.com
The industry standard for bluegrass is 13 to 27 seeds per square inch. That is about 7 pounds per thousand sqft.
Do not let the package instructions exaggerate the coverage.
Put out a bottle cap for a gallon jug and make sure you have at least 13 to 27 per bottle cap--about a square inch.
Show the customer and convince him you are more careful to give the full amount--better than any other lawn company--because you are the best.
Seed Research | Pro Turf
Choose DLF Seed Reasearch brand for exceptional turf quality, density, and disease resistance on your golf course. Our Seed Reasearch varieties ensure healthy, resilient, and beautiful playing surfaces.
www.sroseed.com
And...try to use varieties approved by the University of Maryland or Rutgers.
Do not accept the cheaper--older--more disease-susceptible varieties.
And think about pre-germination of the seed. More bother--but you supply all the water that is needed for the first 7 days before the seed even hits the ground.
And a heavy raking of the area exposes more bare soil. And a heavy raking afterward buries more of the seed a quarter-inch deep.
Rolling--no proof--but it probably helps--and it is quick.
If you do not have a roller--drive over it with a heavy mower. The idea being to press the seed into the soil.
Try to find tall fescue with rhizomes. Creeps better and fills in tighter.
Rebounder and Nightcrawler tall fescue for instance.
FS1186: Tall Fescue Varieties for New Jersey Sports Fields (Rutgers NJAES)
FS1186,
njaes.rutgers.edu
And think about pre-germination of the seed. More bother--but you supply all the water that is needed for the first 7 days before the seed even hits the ground.
And a heavy raking of the area exposes more bare soil. And a heavy raking afterward buries more of the seed a quarter-inch deep.
Rolling--no proof--but it probably helps--and it is quick.
If you do not have a roller--drive over it with a heavy mower. The idea being to press the seed into the soil.
Try to find tall fescue with rhizomes. Creeps better and fills in tighter.
Rebounder and Nightcrawler tall fescue for instance.
Dormant seeding in the fall or seeding on top of snow--might be suitable for non-irrigated properties.
In my test a couple years ago, seed sown late in the fall sprouted in spring--at about the date of the first mowing...last week of April around here in Michigan.
I plan to test this again this year. I did the first seeding a couple days ago about October 13, 2022. Two teaspoons annual rye on one square foot. I will probably sow a snow seed on the adjacent sqft about December 13 and again about January 13 on top of snow.
Not many customers will want to try this, of course.
Try it and let us know what happens.
Shucks--I ran out of new ideas to test.
In my test a couple years ago, seed sown late in the fall sprouted in spring--at about the date of the first mowing...last week of April around here in Michigan.
I plan to test this again this year. I did the first seeding a couple days ago about October 13, 2022. Two teaspoons annual rye on one square foot. I will probably sow a snow seed on the adjacent sqft about December 13 and again about January 13 on top of snow.
Not many customers will want to try this, of course.
Try it and let us know what happens.
Shucks--I ran out of new ideas to test.
I found the exact same results as you
Top dressing is a LOT of work, so I'm now a fan of slice seeding if lawn is in bad shape.
I started this thread BEFORE slice seeding and have been posting updates/phots as time moves along:
www.lawnsite.com
- Double aerate and seed, results were minimal
- Power rake, double aerate, top dress, seed, backdrag, results were excellent
- Slice seed, results were excellent
Top dressing is a LOT of work, so I'm now a fan of slice seeding if lawn is in bad shape.
I started this thread BEFORE slice seeding and have been posting updates/phots as time moves along:
2 Stinger Super Seeder Projects - let's see how...
I've got 2 separate properties I have prepped and ready for overseeding tomorrow (weather permitting). Both lawns are predominantly Kentucky Bluegrass and I will be overseeding both with an ALL KBG blend from a local seed supplier. One customer has a 4 ft wide blvd that gets trashed from...
www.lawnsite.com
Here's another thread where I ask others which does better (aeration + seeding VS slice seeding):
www.lawnsite.com
Yes, power rake, double aerate, top dress, seed, backdrag works as well (maybe slightly better) than slice seeding alone.
Having said that, it's a LOT more work...
Stinger Super Seeder VS Core Aeration/Topdress/Overseed?
I have a flat property that's in need of overseeding. It's about 7.5K total turf area. I've done Aeration/Topdress/Overseed on 3 properties (this is NOT my focus- I'm mowing, fertilization, weed control) all with very good results (all 3 customers followed watering instructions to the tee)...
www.lawnsite.com
Yes, power rake, double aerate, top dress, seed, backdrag works as well (maybe slightly better) than slice seeding alone.
Having said that, it's a LOT more work...
You need a lot of holes to be productive. I did see seeds sprout in my aeration holes but unfortunately I feel like I saw more rot on top of the ground. I wondered how well the seed in the holes done since it was sprouting basically on the sides of the hole. You need a lot of holes and a lot of seed to hit those holes.
You would think that--if slit seeding were better--that the manufacturers would prove it --and then show us, with side by side tests. This with video or photographs.
Of course, this is difficult to demonstrate. How do you tell the new grass from the old grass?
You could kill the old grass with Roundup the third day after seeding.
This year good seed take is much more important. Seed is in short supply. I just looked at a couple seed supply company websites and many seed varieties are sold out. What is not sold out is much higher in price.
Of course, this is difficult to demonstrate. How do you tell the new grass from the old grass?
You could kill the old grass with Roundup the third day after seeding.
This year good seed take is much more important. Seed is in short supply. I just looked at a couple seed supply company websites and many seed varieties are sold out. What is not sold out is much higher in price.
For instance.
A high price.
www.reinders.com
This means that much more careful and thorough soil preparation is justified, essential really. Maybe peat moss is cheaper than seed.
Maybe the peat moss spreader company can prove what percent of the seed will take hold. Is double peat moss justified?
Double topdress?
A high price.
Landmark - HD Sports 2.0 - 50 LB Bag
Deep and fibrous root system is the advantage for fast turf recovery from traffic damage and drought stress Fine blade, dark green color, high density turf Sold Individually. Manufacturer Pallet Size = 40 Buckets
www.reinders.com
This means that much more careful and thorough soil preparation is justified, essential really. Maybe peat moss is cheaper than seed.
Maybe the peat moss spreader company can prove what percent of the seed will take hold. Is double peat moss justified?
Double topdress?
Cannot edit...
for instance the Landzie peat moss spreader.
landzie.com
Is topdress at a quarter-inch best--or would a half-inch be better?
Can you substitute more water?
Double starter fert?
Penn-mulch absorbent mulch pellets? Double the usual amount?
for instance the Landzie peat moss spreader.
Premium Compost Spreader | Peat Moss Spreader | Landzie
The Landzie Compost and Peat Moss Spreader is the #1 compost spreader that also works with peat moss, manure, topsoil, and more!
landzie.com
Is topdress at a quarter-inch best--or would a half-inch be better?
Can you substitute more water?
Double starter fert?
Penn-mulch absorbent mulch pellets? Double the usual amount?
DA Quality (another poster on here) had the EcoLawn top dresser and ended up selling it off. Sounded like the soil/compost needed to be really dry in order for it to spread it nicely.
After another week or so, I am still not that impressed with my results. The areas that I used top soil and really raked, germinated well. The areas that I simply used my nice new to me XT5 and then overseeded did not germinate well. I have some lawns that will need drought repair next spring, as they did not opt for it now since they were getting other projects done. I am glad they did not opt for it now, as I now see I would not have been happy with simple aeration and overseeding at the rate that I was doing. With the price of grass seed what it is, I do NOT feel comfortable increasing the rate of seed. If I got some decent germination at this rate then I would feel better bumping it up to get even better. But when something does not work, doing more of it does not sound like a good investment. So..... I need to rethink this. Do I purchase a slit seeder for these situations? I could pick one up used like I did the XT5. Is there one you recommend? Thanks.
Here are 3 good videos on overseeding (2 from 'This Old House' tv show, the other from guy that tells when to slice seed VS aerate/overseed). Note ALL the steps on TOH aerate/overseed. It really works, but it's a LOT of work.
TOH: power rake, aerate, top dress, seed, backdrag:
TOH: slice seeding:
Columbus (slice seeding vs aeration/overseeding):
TOH: power rake, aerate, top dress, seed, backdrag:
TOH: slice seeding:
Columbus (slice seeding vs aeration/overseeding):
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