Out of curiosity why would you want a sump pump at the end of your driveway?

you definitely don't want aluminum wire.

Gate opener and lights would only require one 120 volt circuit. Due to the distance run 12 2 or 12 3 if you want ability to shut things off at the house.

Personally I'd run 12 2.

Ps you are doing this at a bad time. Copper wiring is at an all time high price right now.

You thinking direct bury or conduit.

I'd do direct bury, due to cost.

 

Out of curiosity why would you want a sump pump at the end of your driveway?

you definitely don't want aluminum wire.

Gate opener and lights would only require one 120 volt circuit. Due to the distance run 12 2 or 12 3 if you want ability to shut things off at the house.

Personally I'd run 12 2.

Ps you are doing this at a bad time. Copper wiring is at an all time high price right now.

You thinking direct bury or conduit.

I'd do direct bury, due to cost.

12/2 or 12/3 is way undersized for 1000'

 

sure, so:

Near the gate there is a drain pipe that runs under the road, like a 2ft diameter steel culvert type pipe. The pipe has been there forever, it belongs to the county rd. folks I suppose.

Here's the deal, the pipe on our side (the other side of the pipe being across the road) is 2 Inches above the top of ground, (2 inches above the top of the mud really). Where, if we got water run off 3 inches deep, only the top inch would flow into the pipe....

I'm wanting to dig a collection basin right under the mouth of this 2 ft. dia. drain culvert, (which is the lowest elevation on our property) and put a sump pump in it, to slowly pump water up into the mouth of the 2 ft. dia. steel drain culvert. (which slopes down and away from our property)

So, not for the purposes of removing high volume, just for the purpose of water removal as the proposed dug-out basin fills and activates a float switch.



I would hope to avoid conduit if possible, this path will traverse under a pasture, so id like it well below plow depth, maybe 3 ft down?

thanks!

 

I would talk to the electrician before you buy or bury anything. Figure out your load the use this calculator to get an idea https://www.southwire.com/calculator-vdrop

 

I know little about electricity. I do from experience that many smart home switches require a neutral wire (3 wires + ground). I would go that way for that reason.

 

wow

I'm still trying to find a 1000 ft roll of 1 AWG burial. Havent yet.

 

wow

View attachment 486992
I'm still trying to find a 1000 ft roll of 1 AWG burial. Havent yet.

You can bury THWN in conduit. But I'd re-think the aluminum option. While aluminum is a bad idea for 20A circuits indoors, it is a perfectly acceptable underground option with large wires.

 

Thanks for the tips, definately going to talk to the electrician first.

He's actually a retired electrical engineer for Mobil Oil.
A life in the refinery.

I want to be as prepared as possible to ask and describe to him the proper things.

I'd really like to figure a ball park wire cost so I can figure out how many days I need to go with just a value meal, until I can upgrade to "Biggie" fries and drink again.

 

Thanks for the tips, definately going to talk to the electrician first.

He's actually a retired electrical engineer for Mobil Oil.
A life in the refinery.

I want to be as prepared as possible to ask and describe to him the proper things.

This will not be a cheap project

 

Suppose you have a fella that once spent several days working with an electrician changing hundreds of grounded wall outlets in an average United States Modern home.

the white, the black, the ground.

what "phase" is that?
and what should this application be? (again a ? for the EE i know)

 

Is this

the same as this

 

Is this View attachment 487016
the same as this
View attachment 487014

Sub panels need 2 hots, neutral, and a ground. I had to do this for my cabin but it was 400'. I ran (3) 4/O aluminum with 2/O ground for 80 amps

 

Officially over my head, but i really appreciate it guys,

at least now I wont be having a 1000 ft roll of god knows what shipped to the fort.

I needed that.

 

What about running a second meter from the power company at the street?

 

Maybe this with low voltage controls plowed in back to the house

 

The current thought is to source the A/C from the the barn's panel, and from there trench all the way to the new proposed pad and sump basin on right.

To throw a curve ball, note Circle "A" and "B",

Circle A represents the location of the old water well, in service as recent as a few years ago.

Circle B represents the new water well location. (but further of no importance really) back to Circle A;

Circle A still has (what i thought up till today, but may still be) a heavy duty set of wires that still exist there for the old pump, the breaker is simply off in the barn's panel. Perhaps this is of use, I will have to note what exactly it is next time I'm there.

 

Correction, the current thought is to let the EE tell me everything and beg if it would be okay if I bury it.

Thanks for the nudge.

 

What are the specs on your pump?

2.71% VD is pretty low. For the usage you're talking about I'd be willing to go up to 5%.

I also wouldn't plan on sharing anything else on that circuit until you have the specs on the pump, especially the Locked Rotor Current/Amps (LRC/LRA).

I also second aluminum usage. I installed a 4000A service with all aluminum conductors. If it's good enough for Kroger's automated warehouse, it's good enough for me.

Your utility uses aluminum cable to your service. I would only consider copper if space were somehow an issue. Looking at your map, though, seems like a lot of extra work to come from the barn when your XFMR is closer. Maybe you could call the POCO and have them drop you a "temp pole" near the pump location. They tend to be more lax about that kind of thing in rural areas.

 

 

Put the cart behind the horse Rhett, install conduit and mule tape now and pull the wire later.

 

You can even get rolls of poly with it installed already https://www.southwire.com/wire-cabl...re-cable/simpull-cable-in-conduit/sdr-13-5-empty-duct-with-pull-rope/p/63308001

 

New service drop up by the road would prob be most ideal, depending on pricing and recommendations from engineering. it looks like the service line runs parallel to the road. Maybe they give you a new drop over the road right where your desired use is at the entry. Giving you a pretty minimal wire run. Which may also depend on how easy the local utility provider is to work with. May save you a lot of work too, and with the cost of 1000' of whatever wire you end up needing, Ild like to think the pricing could be comparable.

Or go solar with some batteries. Ive seen Lots of gate motors in rural areas installed this way. Could have a solar setup for the sump and a separate for the future gate.

 

New service drop up by the road would prob be most ideal, depending on pricing and recommendations from engineering. it looks like the service line runs parallel to the road. Maybe they give you a new drop over the road right where your desired use is at the entry. Giving you a pretty minimal wire run. Which may also depend on how easy the local utility provider is to work with. May save you a lot of work too, and with the cost of 1000' of whatever wire you end up needing, Ild like to think the pricing could be comparable.

Or go solar with some batteries. Ive seen Lots of gate motors in rural areas installed this way. Could have a solar setup for the sump and a separate for the future gate.

Minor consideration.
Some smart home devices use the electrical wiring to augment the data signal from their hub to the smart device. If you have a completely separate electrical service, you lose that benefit. I don't know how significant the benefit is. It may not matter.

 

A little off line of what you're asking but.............
My son has a gate opener, runs off 12v DC as I think most do. The 12v battery is charged off a solar panel, no problemo.
I suppose you could do the same with lights.
The site in the pic looks like it gets plenty of sun and it's always sunny in Texas, right?

The sump pump, that's another deal. Maybe some creative grading drain work?

 

If your electrical load will be analogous to a 1 HP jet pump, then....

"So far as I know, the old 12/2 Aluminum NM cable is a thing of the past, but there is still aluminum USE cable (Underground Service Entrance) you can buy for less than $300 per 1000 ft roll. It must be run in conduit (aluminum cable directly buried is subject to failure) and carefully spliced to copper conductors in a separate junction box at both pump and house. {that last isn't code so much as a nod to Murphy's Law and the unexpected bulk of the Copper/Aluminum connectors}"

 

I don't see why the aluminum would be directly spliced to copper in this instance. I'm under the impression he's planning on installing either a new meter, or a subpanel. Either way, the aluminum feeders would be landing on bus bars, or a breaker, which are these days usually rated to handle CU/AL. From there his branch circuits will be ran with copper.

Direct burial cable should be trenched at least 24'' down, PVC 18'', rigid metal conduit can be as shallow as 6'' if it's not a high traffic area.

At this point, I'd say it's a matter of cost that will determine how he decides to do this project. I would talk to a local reputable electrical contractor for an estimate.

 

Best part of the day Boots, Glad your back!

Will I be needing a +1000 roll of mule tape?

Hadnt considered 1000 ft of conduit, i wonder what size i should get for such a cable.

I wonder if when added to the cost it still is preferrable over direct burial rated copper?


Vehicle scales (in addtion to pump ) should be of negligible amperage use, correct?

 

I think that's what GM said he did as well,

Using aluminum to get to "one box" and then using that to transfer over to copper. that leads to two other "boxes"

Main focus: Do this install once, and make it last forever.

I like the Subpanel idea alot but, until you tell me otherwise:
Some suspicion i have screams that a new meter drop would be $$$ and more post and wires in the field to avoid

Are you an Electrician RSG, you sound well versed in the specs and regs?

 

I think thats what GM said he did as well,

Using aluminum to get to "one box" and then using that to transfer over to copper. that leads to two other "boxes"

Main focus: Do this install once, and make it last forever.

Are you an Electrician RSG, you sound well versed in the specs and regs?

Yes, licensed Journeyman/Master in Texas. This discussion has me itching to crack my code book open, it's been about a year.

If you're only trying to accomplish a pump and a gate opener, that can be pretty easy and "cheap". If you're looking to have a reliable source of power near the road that you can modify later for any number of things, it would take some more planning and is going to cost more.

 

@RhettMan assuming you're were just trying to get one 20A circuit 1000' feet away...

I just did a quick search through Rexel an electrical supplier, and for aluminum cable 1x20A circuit run 1000' and 5% voltage drop

2'' PVC conduit $8.51 per foot
2x 3/0 aluminum at $4.58 a foot (x2 for hot and neutral)
#4 solid copper ground is $3.94 per foot.

For comparable amperage in copper it would be 2x 1AWG +6G. It's actually cheaper at $4.46 per foot.
So:
1x 20A circuit run 1000'
1 1/2'' PVC $6.57
2x 1AWG $4.46
1x 6AWG $1.59

Looking at an easy $20,000 in just wire and conduit for 1x 20A circuit. Is that in your budget?

 

@RhettMan assuming you're were just trying to get one 20A circuit 1000' feet away...

I just did a quick search through Rexel an electrical supplier, and for aluminum cable 1x20A circuit run 1000' and 5% voltage drop

2'' PVC conduit $8.51 per foot
2x 3/0 aluminum at $4.58 a foot (x2 for hot and neutral)
#4 solid copper ground is $3.94 per foot.

For comparable amperage in copper it would be 2x 1AWG +6G. It's actually cheaper at $4.46 per foot.
So:
1x 20A circuit run 1000'
1 1/2'' PVC $6.57
2x 1AWG $4.46
1x 6AWG $1.59

Looking at an easy $20,000 in just wire and conduit for 1x 20A circuit. Is that in your budget?

HD has conduit for $3/ft. Not sure where you are seeing $8.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/JM-eagle-2-in-x-10-ft-PVC-Schedule-40-Conduit-67496/100117340

 

Thanks, I consumed the whole thing all ears.
Thanks for your patience with me.

I now know a lot more now than I originally did:
•Simply by eliminating all the half-ass things I've had in mind (that i didn't know were half-assed)

Have faith! I'm going to use an EE, family friend to assist throughout this process, from the very beginning.

I'm just going to be bothering him alot later than I initially thought

I really appreciate the help guys!

 

I don't know your friend, but not all electrical engineers are created equal. Some understand the theory really well, but don't understand construction material and methods. If their background is construction this shouldn't be a problem.

Here's a video of a EE who tried construction for himself. Skip to the "Electrician Work is Rule (Code) Based".

 

It was mentioned earlier, but have you given a serious thought to a small solar setup? 600watts of panels,a mppt controller, an inverter and a four 100ah agm batteries would be plenty of power for the lights, gate opener and occasional use sump pump. It would be about 2k instead of 20..... could also be a 100% diy project as well.

 

Yes Iv liked your and Art's suggestion for the Solar, I think that's a great Idea too.

Take a close look at the picture and notice the ground that the tractor had to avoid,

evacuating that water is my heart of hearts. after a good rain, after water level is level with bottom of pipe, its still hours and hours and on and off pump cycling. (But to your defense I hadnt mentioned that)

(3-4 Minutes* at a time to drop basin level -once surface water is gone, and its only the ground water that remains)

(*Edit: Actually, i suspect the intial running of the pump, when there is still several inches of water over an acre, would be alot longer than this, probably well>1hr

I put one of the sump pump basins in the lowest parts of my backyard and ran all my french drains to it. Maybe in hindsight I should have graded, i wont know.

Something tells me grading wont help this case,
but! look how wrong iv been before ^: The ironic extent of it almost guarantees that all I'll need is a solar gate and a dozer.

But oh how I'm enjoying this theoretical scenario learning.

 

He was an engineer, in the MobilOil and Exxon Refineries most of his life, still hired there as a private contractor today . They wont let him go.
MultiM-aire that helps my grandfather for free and wont accept payment. Lives down the street from the photo you have, rides a buggy like Jim, and often times totes a 6-shooter.

We love him dearly, one of the family's greatest treasures.

He is quite content talking at length about the interstate highway system changes over the decades, diesel engines, satellite communications, Chrysler products, and of course, A/C. (amongst almost anything else you can think of)
There is no way of knowing how many genuine jams he has gotten us out of with his help, one way or another, but it must be in the 100s of thousands worth of good advice and help.

Good ol' Art.
They don't make them like that anymore I don't think.

I figure, the more I learn from you guys, the less of his time I will waste.

 

The reason for choosing aluminum, is not only cost, but the availability of 1000 ft SEU cables on the secondary market. The $300 price mentioned on the pond pump thread was for something easily had from eBay, that could supply a 700 ft run to a pump with a running current of 8.1 Amps at 240 Volts (still a 20 amp circuit breaker, because starting surge)

Copper has too much scrap value to expect it to be sold for cheap on a secondary market. Aluminum, not as much.

Since there are reliable sump pumps that operate from batteries, maybe the planning should be for solar cells charging a battery bank, that can run the whole show. If you still chose to run a power cable to the location, it would only need to be able to top up the battery bank, and voltage drops wouldn't have to figure into the planning, since a lot modern electronics are indifferent to supply voltage variations.

 

Perhaps I've been commiting the sin of assuming that solar cant do it, or that the right size would be too expensive. (subconciously till now) I'll admit ive never looked into it.

any certain mixes and models that you think would fit the expenditure?

 

I expect the camera stuff could run on anything, given that there are power adapters with input ranges like 20-280 Volts, AC or DC. Modern times.