So IF it settled
Then on the right hand side of the pic the pavers would have dropped down below the wooden post trim
But you can see it’s the same as the trim on the posts to the right (on the other side of the heave.

So left to right the levels look the same
It does look as if something pushed up in the middle

I think you have soil conditions out of your control

IF IT was me
I’d excavate 36” down
Lay geotex fabric
Compact in 6” lifts with be fabric every lift
My excavation area would be 20 percent large than the patio
Spike down the edges of the geotex
Photograph and document the process

This is what I would do anytime I was worried about foundation or preexisting settling issues
Especially in areas with freeze thaw

Does the ground freeze where you’re at?
Do you have hot springs?

 

We don't get a very deep freeze line here. We typically only have to install 4" crusher base. (I know we're lucky). unless of course you have expansive soils, then we have to dig out and install more crusher. But we excavated at least 12" on this job. How was I supposed to know I needed to excavate 24"+.
I really appreciate your input.

I don't know about hot springs?

So how do I go about dealing with my customer. Do I just tell them sorry your soil issues are out of my control and I'm not responsible.

 

We don't get a very deep freeze line here. We typically only have to install 4" crusher base. (I know we're lucky). unless of course you have expansive soils, then we have to dig out and install more crusher. But we excavated at least 12" on this job. How was I supposed to know I needed to excavate 24"+.
I really appreciate your input.

I don't know about hot springs?

So how do I go about dealing with my customer. Do I just tell them sorry your soil issues are out of my control and I'm not responsible.

Well

I don't know
I'm reaching with the hot springs
Trying to think what made soil go UP
With out freezing

Earthquake?

 

i dont do pavers but my thought is tell customer ive no way of knowing for sure what is going to happen down the line , and if a big project would be enough to fix issue permanently . so how bout i just patch it for now and let some time go by to see what happens before a final fix is attempted .

 

If they had the house piered then the most likely have a geo tech report. That will give you some indication of what you are dealing with.

And a P.S.
Go look at the deck surface above and see if that elevation corresponds to the paver patio. I assume those porch posts are on footings. If they piered the house, but not the deck post footing, the footings for the deck posts could moving with the type of soil you have in OK. (Especially the one with the downspout attached to it)

 

I would suspect that report will tell you the problem. Down here in Florida that would be sinkhole activity for sure. I had it at my home and they drill down all around the house 10' deep and as far as 30' for my problem. Then they pump concrete (35 truck fulls) so now the house is literately sitting on the rock of Gibraltar!

 

It looks to me like things are pulling away from the house, including the short brick wall in the last photo. I wonder if the post with the drain spout is still vertical. You may want to check all the other things that are supposed to be vertical. If the house is situated on a hill, things could be slipping away from the house.

 

I do pavers in Oklahoma City area and I am wondering if you have a saturated base from osmotic water moving from a hill above the paver job you did into your base. I also do drains and I've seen lots of patios after removed are basically floating on top of a jello like base. And these bases were done correctly. I suggest you pull some of those pavers and see if it's jello under there. That wouldn't be your problem. To correct a jello base youll need a french drain on the outside edge of your pavers to intercept the water. There are other causes of a jello base, such as a broken sprinkler pipe, or a slab leak.

 

BTW most foundation problems are caused by water problems, so that's why I brought up the idea.

 

do they have a pressurized sewer system? water line coming in there somewhere?

 

Do you have a line in your contract about "unforeseen circumstances or events, acts of nature ect"

This is something that would fall under "unforeseen circumstances" and they should help pay for the repair.

 

The pictures do not look like “heaving”.

It looks like improper edge restraint installation. Case closed.

All these replies and no one can’t see its sliding away?

 

The pictures do not look like "heaving".

It looks like improper edge restraint installation. Case closed.

All these replies and no one can't see its sliding away?

Factually I was the first to suggest that it was slipping away from the house in post number 11. If you want to say that as well, at least I'll have company if I'm wrong.

 

How would it slide away with a post in the middle of it? If it is it’s not an edge restraint issue.

 

How would it slide away with a post in the middle of it? If it is it's not an edge restraint issue.

Study the picture more closely. The gap narrows drastically at the post. Take a look again.

I can not tell you how many pavers jobs are out there with improper edge restraint installation. The edge restraint MUST be sitting on no less than 6-inches of shoulder width.

Back when we did hardscapes, proper edge restraint methods was a major part of my sales presentation, complete with photos.

This problem is subsequent of improper edge restraint preperation and installation.

 

if You go to any of our paver jobs, and shovel up the soil around the outer perimeters, you’ll hit a solid aggregate base. The outer gravel perimeters of our paver jobs are as solid as the inner portions of our jobs. This takes a cognizant effort.

 

From someone who doesn't do hardacape at all but happens to be a self proclaimed physics nut, and yeah took quite a few physics classes along the way... Pic #5 of the op does look like a slide away to the outside. Otherwise you could never get those angles of space from that piece of three "tiles" in the fifth picture roughly in the middle of the pic. That's definitely a sheering away to the outside to get those angles. My 2 cents. Again not a hardacape guy just looking at the angles.

 

Been a long week here. 1st time in a while that we worked a full week (the rains have been hindering production), so I'm mentally exhausted. But the way I'm think of this is along the line of physics, too.

See, when a segmental retaining Wall fails, due to hydrostatic pressure - it "rotates" forward. Meaning the wall actually rolls like a ball, until it reaches a certain extent.

And What I'm seeIng in the pictures reminds me of a failed retaining wall.

 

It looks to me like the soldier course is now pitched towards the house which opened up the crack that is now visible. Water is now getting into that crack and freezing causing it to open more every time there is a freeze thaw cycle. I don't think it is a edge restraint problem, I think the house is still settling. Either way it is now your problem and I think you should fix this on your dime. This is your reputation on the line. It looks like you used polymeric sand and it is going to be a ***** to clean the brick and get it back together and looking nice. I would explain to the homeowner That you are going to take care of it and hopefully after tearing into it you will have some more insight but if the problem continues the problem is with the house and this specific situation and you installed the pavers according local building and ICPI standards.

 

After taking a closer look at the post with the downspout, it looks like the post is trying to prevent the pavers behind it from moving, but the pavers in front of it are moving away from the post. That would suggest that the pavers are sliding away from the house and the post may still be vertical. If the post is also moving away from the house and is no longer vertical there are likely to be some very serious problems with the soil stability on that lot.

The fact that the whole home had to be "piered" to prevent it from moving also suggests serious problems with soil stability.

It's too bad that you now find yourself in this situation, I feel for you. I would recommend you do what the engineer suggested then remove yourself from this problem as best you can.

 

just look at the brick wall cracken and you know theres huge problems . the pavers sliding out away from home because of any insufficient bordering would not cause the wall to crack ! theres a big issue there and trying to fix this patio now would be very foolish

 

Hence "edge restraint preperation".

A loose shoulder, aka - deficient compaction.

One component is reliant on another.

Regardless, House foundation problems or not, the pictures show that the pavers are sliding away, subsequent of deficient edge restraint.

So, now the problem has been zeroed into deficient edge restraint. And from there - what makes the edge restraint deficient?

 

This is what happens when you use magnetized bricks and put the same poles next to each other... simple science Watson


Lol

 

Maybe the backfill is still settling from all the pier digging

 

Yea
But "settling" sinks
What part of the pictures shows a sunken area?

 

Sounds like there is some history with the property and house.

From being a part of this forum, it’s been my observation that hardscape guys are quick to want to land any job that comes across their desk.

Once you have your hands in the pot, you’re responsible.

A good contractor must always think “liability liability liability” day in and day out. And must be readily able to say “no” to even the biggest jobs.

Someone on here once quoted someone else. Not certain who. But it was this:

“I made my first million saying yes to everyone, and I made my second million saying no to everyone”.

I’m not implying this post to the post creator. I’m implying this post to all contractors, more-so the rookies.

 

The OP hasn't been back since last Wednesday

 

I hope he's ok

 

I don't believe for an instant that edge restraint had a thing to do with this. Yes its important but don't think it was responsible for what your showing us.
No matter how strong the edge restraint it would have no bearing on the ground shifting or heaving. Its your responsibility to find a solution. I for one would at minimum lift the affected areas and reset. Its going to be a major pita with that poly sand.
When you put interlock up against the clay brick around the house, don't put sand there, you'll want to either put a piece of platon or blueskin barrier to keep the moisture off the house brick.

 

So if this is an "edge retention problem" why has nothing closer to the edge cracked loose? This looks more akin to a concrete slab cracking or tile inside a house on top of a concrete slab crack. Those cracks aren't caused by "edge retention" They are caused by foundation problems. Most people don't understand what clay soils can do to construction. Clay can swell like those toy pills you put in the "bathub". (sic) It can also shrink a lot too.

All that being said, a concrete slab underneath with uber rebar and non poly sand in the joints may be the only recourse. Oh yeah and french drain it too.

I would ask them to help pay for the concrete part, and if they refuse, fix it just like you built it and then you have no more liability.

 

im wondering if maybe :
1-the areas along the house and perimeter of patio both settled yet the middle did not, so the middle didnt heave up, it stayed true, surrounding areas sank, or
2. water is getting trapped under the patio in the middle, and when it had no where else to go, it had to go up, in the areas where you see the heaving?

 

If the house or part of the foundation settled that much , you'd think somebody would know it

 

I ran across this and had to comment. This is a fascinating example of what I come across on a regular basis over 25 years installing pavers. The first thing you mention is that there was a concrete patio there to begin with. That is number one problem with this install. You don't have a heaving issue! What you have is settlement along the house where the concrete was "hanging". I'd bet there were even holes under that concrete along the house and outer edges, or significant cracking? For that reason, along the house backfill soil has never "settled" completely and you might as well still be dealing with new construction. There was no weight on the soils, nor much water ever getting in there. The second thing I see on this project is a "fault" line. I see many comments asking about your edge restraint. I doubt it, or the edges would have actually failed, not sections. So here is my next question. Did you expand beyond what was the original concrete slab area with your pavers? Are the crack lines in the pavers following the edges of original concrete slabs? I'd bet this is a compaction issue again. I don't see a heaving issue in any way shape or form, it is a settlement issue, just like the engineer told you. All the edges settled and you ended up with what looked like heaving in the center. The new sections outside the original slabs were excavated to a different depth and compacted separately. Now, the pavers moved in exact pattern to how you expanded the patio around the original concrete slabs. Under the concrete was never compacted properly around the home when it was installed and you are still dealing with the issues it created today!

 

One last comment. You can still see the scuff marks from the final compaction of the pavers with your machine. Get one of those pads for your machine. For the homeowner and you to spend all that time and money on an expensive paver like the one you used, and then ruin the final look during the last 10 minutes of the install is not as professional as it could be. It took me many years to purchase one of those pads, but with the new high texture pavers, it really is required now.