I'm not an electrician so I don't include anything to do with the primary side of things in my jobs. Even if an outlet needs to be added off of an existing power source, I always call my electrician and let him bill the client directly and warranty those kind of nuisance calls himself. It's nothing that has to be warrantied very often, but when it does I don't want any part of tracking down the issue.
What I've always wondered, though I have never asked, is why is it necessary to have the GFCI reset on the outlet when the circuit is already covered by GFCI with a breaker at the panel. This always seemed a bit redundant to me but, as I said, I'm not an electrician.

 

Your preaching to the choir James. I despise the GFCI nuisance. It has been the cause of many wasted hours and useful petroleum.

 

Our electrician has been using signal filters to help quiet down the transformer noise on the primary. He says they help the nuisance tripping.

We have one right now that won't reset. Prom was today and we cant get her water feature on!

 

99% of the time, at least for me anyway, if it won't reset at the outlet it usually means it's tripped in the panel or there is another outlet on the circuit that also has the reset buttons. If that isn't it, it's very possible that the outlet has just worn itself out and needs to be replaced. I'm sure you already know this..... the comment is for others who may not have had as much experience with this issue.

 

I don't have many issues with them. The only time I had one really cause me harm was not landscape related. I went on vacation for two weeks and when I came home, my freezer was off. Ruined 50lbs of shrimp that my grandfather and I had caught with his shrimp boat in Georgetown. The breaker was fine then I noticed a yellow glow coming from the GFCI outlet on the other wall. The freezer outlet was connected to the GFCI and it was tripped. Only happened that one time and it had been plugged in there for 10 years!

 

Lots of people have refrigerators/freezers on their GFI circuits and those motors pull a lot of amps. Putting any thing else on that circuit usually ends with that result.

 

GFCI circuits should never have more than one GFCI device on it. If this is the case you will always have troubles.
Outdoor receptacles should be on there own 15 amp circuit breaker withe the main feed from that circuit breaker going to your GFCI receptacle. From that GFCI receptacle you can run wires to other outdoor receptacles. These receptacles will be the normal receptacles you are familiar with. If there is an issue with anything plugged into any of these the GFCI receptacle will trip and you will have to reset it to return power to all of the devices.
You should have bubble covers on all outdoor receptacles which will help keeping moisture out.
You can special order GFCI receptacles with a higher milli-amp thresh hold. Moisture will always corrode the internal circuit board on the GFCI and that is usually the culprit. Protecting all the plugs from this as best as you can will help.
Having a GFCI breaker for the outdoor receptacles will allow the homeowner to try and reset it but if there is any moisture or anything plugged in that has a problem it will not reset.
Hard wiring your transformers is the only way to eliminate the GFCI nuisance tripping.
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My preferred brand for 20 years is Pass & Seymour. I replace a lot of Leviton. Anything outdoor takes more of a beating and doesn't last as long. GFCIs tripping is not usually an outlet issue. Usually something plugged into the outlet is causing it to trip. Closed bubble covers are a must. I don't often diagnose landscape lights but I would guess most issues are with fixtures, damaged wires and splices.

Downstream GFCI protection is no more trouble-prone, other than sometimes finding the controlling GFCI. The need for a dedicated circuit depends on the load. If hardwiring a transformer involves cutting the power cord, I'd advise against it and that does not exclude it from ground-fault protection requirement in my opinion.

 

Lots of people have refrigerators/freezers on their GFI circuits and those motors pull a lot of amps. Putting any thing else on that circuit usually ends with that result.

Aren't those supposed to be on separate circuits from the kitchen GFCI?

 

Two 20-amp kitchen counter small appliance circuits are required and the refrigerator is allowed to be on one of them. Not a great design but very common in code-minimum new construction.

 

Aren't those supposed to be on separate circuits from the kitchen GFCI?

Yes, and they usually are. I was talking about fridges/freezers that a lot of folks (at least around here) put in their garage for extra storage. I'm sure this can't be just a Southern or Florida thing, is it? I also agree with everything that emby stated above..... all good points. However, for some strange reason I encounter a lot of situations where there is more than one GFCI outlet on a GFCI circuit protected at the panel. I've always known this is outside the realm of National Electric Code, but it happens frequently nonetheless. Another reason why I don't warranty anything on the primary side of the electrical functions of my lighting systems.

 

My preferred brand for 20 years is Pass & Seymour. I replace a lot of Leviton. Anything outdoor takes more of a beating and doesn't last as long. GFCIs tripping is not usually an outlet issue. Usually something plugged into the outlet is causing it to trip. Closed bubble covers are a must. I don't often diagnose landscape lights but I would guess most issues are with fixtures, damaged wires and splices.

Downstream GFCI protection is no more trouble-prone, other than sometimes finding the controlling GFCI. The need for a dedicated circuit depends on the load. If hardwiring a transformer involves cutting the power cord, I'd advise against it and that does not exclude it from ground-fault protection requirement in my opinion.

Low voltage transformers have two windings, a primary and a secondary. It uses induction to provide the 12 volts onto the secondary windings. GFCI protection is only monitoring the primary side of the transformers and will usually trip because of moisture issues which usually is caused by any small leakage between the hot and neutrals. GFCI's do not monitor leakage to ground they monitor what goes out must come back.
In our low voltage world moisture or double GFCI protection is usually the problem in my opinion.
By code if you are using an outdoor receptacle then yes you have to ensure its on a GFCI protected circuit. But if you eliminate the receptacle and purchase a transformer without a cord you can certainly hard wire them.
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Please clarify. If my new client has a GFCI outlet (with the buttons) at the location that I wish to mount a transformer, and that circuit is covered by a GFCI breaker at the panel........ I can remove the GFCI outlet in the J-box and directly connect my transformer inside the J-box (Hard wired)?

 

Before you answer that, I'd like to also add that I'm not supportive of hardwiring a transformer into the J-box. Although I will agree that this possibly eliminates a few problems along the way, it also creates a few issues. First, most transformer manufacturers will not honor their warranty if the plug has been cut off. Secondly, if a service tech needs to disconnect and/or replace the transformer, he/she must first bring in a licensed electrician to disconnect it. Then, once the unit is replaced (if needed) a licensed electrician will then have to come back to reconnect the transformer. This process is time consuming and obviously cumbersome for a simple service call and will require multiple visits which can be costly to the contractor as well as inconvenient for the homeowner. Again, I agree that hard-wiring is perhaps a better method. However, most low voltage lighting contractors will be acting beyond their scope of work if they choose to do this on their own. We all know that this is something that is easily accomplished without an electrician's license, but it is also something that is very dangerous and potentially detrimental to the unlicensed contractor who chooses to risk this type of work. I don't use my plumber for my dental work, and I certainly don't exceed my boundaries of my low voltage license just because I know how to connect and/or disconnect and electrical outlet. This practice can potentially put an end to your business and possibly bring extremely damaging law-suits to your existence. You might as well drive while intoxicated with your children in the car. It's really the same difference when you get down to it.

 

Please clarify. If my new client has a GFCI outlet (with the buttons) at the location that I wish to mount a transformer, and that circuit is covered by a GFCI breaker at the panel........ I can remove the GFCI outlet in the J-box and directly connect my transformer inside the J-box (Hard wired)?

Sorry for the confusion....I will reply to both to better clarify.
As you described above, if you have double GFCI protection on a single circuit you will always have nuisance tripping. this will occur regardless of any other problem such as moisture or a defective device plugged in.
I will reply to the second one now...
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Before you answer that, I'd like to also add that I'm not supportive of hardwiring a transformer into the J-box. Although I will agree that this possibly eliminates a few problems along the way, it also creates a few issues. First, most transformer manufacturers will not honor their warranty if the plug has been cut off. Secondly, if a service tech needs to disconnect and/or replace the transformer, he/she must first bring in a licensed electrician to disconnect it. Then, once the unit is replaced (if needed) a licensed electrician will then have to come back to reconnect the transformer. This process is time consuming and obviously cumbersome for a simple service call and will require multiple visits which can be costly to the contractor as well as inconvenient for the homeowner. Again, I agree that hard-wiring is perhaps a better method. However, most low voltage lighting contractors will be acting beyond their scope of work if they choose to do this on their own. We all know that this is something that is easily accomplished without an electrician's license, but it is also something that is very dangerous and potentially detrimental to the unlicensed contractor who chooses to risk this type of work. I don't use my plumber for my dental work, and I certainly don't exceed my boundaries of my low voltage license just because I know how to connect and/or disconnect and electrical outlet. This practice can potentially put an end to your business and possibly bring extremely damaging law-suits to your existence. You might as well drive while intoxicated with your children in the car. It's really the same difference when you get down to it.

Totally agree with you on this. You should never cut any cords on transformers that are manufactured and shipped with them.
There are manufactures that do make hang on transformers that you can order for hard wired applications.
Obviously only qualified contractors should be doing this....For service situations for non qualified employees your electrician can install a switch beside the transformer to isolate the power for removal. ( just like your furnace has this)
You can leave the GFCI breaker in the panel and eliminate the receptacle and replace with a junction box or switch. I hope I understood you correctly....
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Is there such a thing as a LV outdoor lighting transformer intended for direct wiring without integrated GFCI protection?

 

Sure there is....when an appropriate landscape lighting transformer is located indoors.... Q-tran for example....Wires coming or going from within a dwelling require to have 90 degree C rating (q-wire) in PVC etc.
Basically I see where you are going from me re-reading all the posts....
If you are going to install the transformer outside whether it be in the ground or hang-on type, they obviously have to be on a GFCI protected circuit. (at least for our Canadian Electrical Code). To eliminate the nuisance tripping of outdoor GFCI receptacles I suggested to hardwire the transformers and that means that you would still be required to have a GFCI breaker at the panel protecting this outdoor device and circuit. By eliminating the GFCI receptacle that your transformer is plugged into (by hard wiring) them you are eliminating all the moisture issues etc. that almost always cause a fault.
I know, clear as mud....LOL

 

I just wanted to be clear that nobody is advocating removing the exterior GFCI and cutting the cord on an exterior LV transformer to hardwire the transformer.

 

Thanks for the clarification Emby. This info was useful and I appreciate you for taking the time to explain it.

 

For service situations for non qualified employees your electrician can install a switch beside the transformer to isolate the power for removal. ( just like your furnace has this)
You can leave the GFCI breaker in the panel and eliminate the receptacle and replace with a junction box or switch. I hope I understood you correctly....
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Sorry, just one more question please. Are you talking about an emergency disconnect? Granted, this would obviously make the task "safer" for the non-qualified service tech if he has to disconnect/reconnect the transformer to the j-box, but does this make the process legal or within the boundaries of a low voltage contractor? If I'm understanding this correctly, you are saying that shutting the power off will enable the lighting contractor to accomplish his job in the event that he has to remove the transformer or reconnect it (hard-wire it) back into the j-box. Why would that be acceptable? Why not just cut the circuit by flipping the breaker that's feeding that circuit and then performing the task at hand? But there is still an unlicensed contractor making 120v connections whether the power is off or not. I apologize if I've misunderstood but this doesn't make sense to me so please let me know what I've missed. I've always understood that it is the job of the licensed electrician to make any connections on the primary side and the unlicensed contractor should not be involved with these connections just because the feed has been shut down.
As I mentioned earlier, I'm very much a proponent of not stepping outside of my boundaries/license, even though it may seem to be an easy 5 minute fix to the situation and I have the knowledge to do it. I am probably overly cautious but I'm always going to bring in another professional when necessary because I don't want to ever jeopardize my business operations. My electricians sometimes seem shocked that I wouldn't do this on my own, but they always seem to be appreciative of my position on this and they enjoy the easy and quick service call (which is paid by the client by the way).

This is also why I get so frustrated when I lose a job to someone who is a handy-man that installs 3 jobs per year and doesn't have a clue. Hire the right professional for the job and you won't be disappointed down the road..... that's my motto.

 

I wish everyone ran their business like yours Chris.

 

I wish everyone ran their business like yours Chris.

I agree with this too. Thinking of every detail is essential and is what separates the good contractors from the bad ones.
Chris, the switch I'm referring to is the type where it would be installed into a pvc box and with an exterior cover plate that has a red handle on it. Yes you could shut off the breaker but that means you having access to the residence which in most cases for me anyways is not possible as the client is usually not home.
It could be somewhat of a grey area when it comes to servicing or replacing the transformer as you have mentioned above. So if the installation method that I have suggested will still cause concern then yes do not do it and continue to just have the GFCI receptacle and unplug.
I have not had to replace a single hang on type transformer yet but I could see why it might have to be done.
Keep doing what you feel comfortable doing that's a good thing. Sorry for the confusion.
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Some areas require a form of disconnect within either a certain distance and/or line of sight. A breaker inside someone's house would not qualify as a means of disconnect in the case of most hard wired transformers.

 

In our code, what you have quoted is for motors only.....within site and at least 27 feet from the motor. Outside air handlers and air conditioners also have similar requirements but the disconnect means is much closer.

Think of this: you have a large site with 20 below grade low voltage lighting transformers all located throughout the site. They are all piped in using PVC. You do not need to have a means of disconnects for each one of them by the transformer. Most are controlled by Lutron systems and a breaker from the various electrical panels on site.

This is getting a bit off topic from the original comment but I thought I should clarify so others are not totally confused.