They don't negate the properties of each other. You can put them out at the same time. I usually apply dolometic lime before I aerate in the Fall, so some can move into the soil.

 

Around here, 90% of the time lawns don't need fertilizer to correct PH issues so I would do a lab check of suspect lawns before applying lime.

...

 

I have read that nitrogen and lime can turn into amonia? Has anybody heard this?

 

I have read that nitrogen and lime can turn into amonia? Has anybody heard this?

It can lead to increased volatilization losses as a result of high(er) pH in surface soils, some fertilizers impacted more than others. Urea based fertilizers typically have the highest risk of volatilization losses over other types of N ferts, especially when broadcast/surface applied. That said, there are other factors that can also lead to increased volatilization losses (for all N types, but in particular Urea N), does anyone here consider these factors as well?

 

Urea is converted into ammonia and ammonium regardless of the Lime reaction

The Calcium will kick off 2 Hydrogen from the exchange sites on the soil colloids. The 2 Hydrogen that have been displaced will lower the surface soil PHw for a few but quickly attach to the carbonate created in the lime reaction and bubble off as CO2. The PH will increase from the loss of Hydrogen.

As long as the PH is not above 7.5 volatilization of Urea is not an issue. If you have a low PH and are liming then the PH is below 7.5 . Hydrogen in the soil attaches to the ammonia(NH3) to make Ammonium(NH4) readily. If your liming then the increase in PH should make the N more available. Cant think of anything else other than keep Oxygen high.

 

... That said, there are other factors that can also lead to increased volatilization losses (for all N types, but in particular Urea N), does anyone here consider these factors as well?

That would be an interestting topic, in that I believe we put down too much N, just to watch it disappear into the water table or into the air...

 

Urea is converted into ammonia and ammonium regardless of the Lime reaction

The Calcium will kick off 2 Hydrogen from the exchange sites on the soil colloids. The 2 Hydrogen that have been displaced will lower the surface soil PHw for a few but quickly attach to the carbonate created in the lime reaction and bubble off as CO2. The PH will increase from the loss of Hydrogen.

Neither hydrogen or CO2 is necessarily lost from the system, and hydrogen is most certainly not lost as a result of CO2 gassing off.

As long as the PH is not above 7.5 volatilization of Urea is not an issue.

That would depend on what you define as an issue. It is true that you will see higher volatilization losses at higher pH, however you can see significant volatilization losses at pH values lower than 7.5, particularly as a function of time with surface applied urea.

If you have a low PH and are liming then the PH is below 7.5 . Hydrogen in the soil attaches to the ammonia(NH3) to make Ammonium(NH4) readily. If your liming then the increase in PH should make the N more available. Cant think of anything else other than keep Oxygen high.

The ammonia reacts with water, not free hydrogen, and this is a reversible reaction.

NH4 + OH <-> NH3 + H2O

 

In general situations where there is low PH would it be best to space the applications of lime or calcium type products and then the app of regular fert?

For instance apply lime product and then say 2 weeks later apply reg fert.

 

Neither hydrogen or CO2 is necessarily lost from the system, and hydrogen is most certainly not lost as a result of CO2 gassing off.
LIME REACTION
CaCO3 + H2O → Ca+2 + CO3-2 + H2O
[ Soil ] H Ca+2→ [ Soil ]Ca + 2H+H CO3-2 + H+ → HCO3-1
HCO3-1 + H+ →H2O + CO2 (gas) ↑
(Loss of a free Hydrogen from Hydrogen bonding to form a water molecule and Co2 gassing off as a result) That is the whole point of liming. Reduce the Hydrogen.

 

The ammonia reacts with water, not free hydrogen, and this is a reversible reaction.

NH4 + OH <-> NH3 + H2O

Its reversible because its not a true bond or end to our problem of ammonia gas. Ammonia in water is nothing more than ammonia in water. A FREE HYDROGEN is needed to form a bond with NH3. That is why a PH of less than say 7.2 is needed. Plentiful FREE HYDROGEN.

NH4 is taken up by the plant and guess what more FREE HYDROGEN is released from the root. Or NH4 is nitrified to Nitrate NO3 by microbes and FREE HYDROGEN is released. Roots take it up releasing FREE HYDROGEN.
Its FREE H all the time my friend

NH4 + OH = The illusive and non existent Ammonium Hydroxide. I always loved this one.

 

Neither hydrogen or CO2 is necessarily lost from the system, and hydrogen is most certainly not lost as a result of CO2 gassing off.
LIME REACTION
CaCO3 + H2O → Ca+2 + CO3-2 + H2O
[ Soil ] H Ca+2→ [ Soil ]Ca + 2H+H CO3-2 + H+ → HCO3-1
HCO3-1 + H+ →H2O + CO2 (gas) ↑
(Loss of a free Hydrogen from Hydrogen bonding to form a water molecule and Co2 gassing off as a result) That is the whole point of liming. Reduce the Hydrogen.

These are the equilibrium reactions for various types of liming material (Lindsay 1979. Chemical Equilibria in Soils)

CaCO3 (calcite) + 2 H+ = Ca2+ + CO2(g) + H2O

CaCO3 (aragonite) + 2 H+ = Ca2+ + CO2(g) + H2O

CaMg(CO3)2 (dolomite) + 4 H+ = Ca2+ + Mg2+ + 2 CO2(g) + 2 H2O

CaO (lime) + 2 H+ =Ca2+ + H2O

Ca(OH)2 (portlandite) + 2 H+ =Ca2+ + 2 H2O​

Second, you said the hydrogen attaches to the carbonate ion and bubbles off as CO2 .... it does not.

The Calcium will kick off 2 Hydrogen from the exchange sites on the soil colloids. The 2 Hydrogen that have been displaced will lower the surface soil PHw for a few but quickly attach to the carbonate created in the lime reaction and bubble off as CO2. The PH will increase from the loss of Hydrogen.

The above statement is incorrect. Further, the hydrogen is still in the system as water (assuming an equilibrium reaction), it is just no longer actively contributing to soil acidity.

Third, CO2 doesn't necessarily gas off. It can, but there are other possibilities.

Its reversible because its not a true bond or end to our problem of ammonia gas. Ammonia in water is nothing more than ammonia in water. A FREE HYDROGEN is needed to form a bond with NH3. That is why a PH of less than say 7.2 is needed. Plentiful FREE HYDROGEN.

You need to understand the reaction here.

NH4 + OH <-> NH3 + H2O

There is no free hydrogen needed in this reaction. You can try to add in a free hydrogen here, but the equation won't be balanced nor will it be correct. Now if you want to write the equation for the reaction of NH3 and free soil solution hydrogen ions, have at it, but it really has little to do with surface applied fertilizers and potential volatilization losses. The rest of your post is irrelevant to the topic.

 

It can lead to increased volatilization losses as a result of high(er) pH in surface soils, some fertilizers impacted more than others. Urea based fertilizers typically have the highest risk of volatilization losses over other types of N ferts, especially when broadcast/surface applied. That said, there are other factors that can also lead to increased volatilization losses (for all N types, but in particular Urea N), does anyone here consider these factors as well?

This is a very true statement PH of surface soils has everything to do with volitilization levels, a base nutrient such as calcium reacting with moisture ( hydrogen ) creates OH hydroxides - which raise the PH and therefore raise the volitilization level. Remember basic soil science ( logarithm of acid ions ) 0 - 14/ percent hydrogen vs percent hydroxide. Kiril said it best with urea being the the most susceptible because hydrogen directly affects its breakdown as well as the enzyme urease.

Dave